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    Originally posted by Post-Crisis Shob View Post



    Gengar frail enough that its not gonna have a whole lot of opportunities to set up a plot unless it comes in on a choice-locked immunity or a toxic stalling wall and will probably prefer to be running its old sets against most teams, but thats a neat little wallbreaking trick for the stall match-up.

    Heavy Slam Tyranitar---ehhhhhhhhhhhhh. Helps with some fairies I guess??? Seems like a wasted moveslot on a pokemon that already has so many good moves it wants to run and so much its trying to fit into just 4 moves.

    Mystical Fire Gardevoir--straight upgrade over Hidden Power fire, which Gardevoir was already running for coverage. Nice buff.

    Close Combat Crawdaunt--this thing's niche is its adaptability boosted stabs. Its not dropping Crab Hammer, Aqua Jet or Knock Off; thats MAYBE one slot it can swing for fighting coverage, and it would still probably rather be running Crunch to fill out an all-out-attacker set or a boosting move.

    Baton Pass Jirachi--smogon has been super wonky with how it treats its competitive clauses around baton pass for the past few gens now. Jirachi already has u-turn for a generally better pivot that also does chip damage; baton pass is just sorta there if you wanna get cute with calm mind or try for a dedicated full pass squad. (The stand-alone calm mind passer sounds generally less useful thatn scarf and bulky wish variants. The full pass squad always winds up being either so good that it gets banned, or unusably bad; it never seems to fall right in the middle of being "good enough to be a healthy part of the meta, but not banworthy")

    Nasty Plot Rotom--oh hell the fuck yes. (this is what you want nasty plot on. something that can take a hit while setting up + actually needs the extra power to break through its defensive counterplay)

    Close Combat Conkeldurr--ehhhhhhhhhhhhh. Defense drop kills its tankiness. It doesn't really need more power, and it really likes having maximum coverage alongside passive healing from drain punch and priority from mach punch. Can it sacrifice coverage or longevity for a more powerful fighting STAB? Sure--but its probably going to be worse for it. It would need to turn some pretty significant 3HKO's into 2HKO's and 2HKO's into OHKO's to have any real reason to go over Drain punch.

    Hydregion--I still don't see this being OU beyond the limited intro period to the gen when people are experimenting with new things, tbh. Cool that it has set up options now. But 105 attack 98 spd is not that great for an OU Dragon Dancer, and the Nasty Plotter is just a big clunky wallbreaker with a shaky speed tier and a ton of exploitable weaknesses. (See the currently UU by usage Hoopa-U, in BL)

    And on top of that it will have the same problem its always had of just being outclassed by better dragons in whatever role it tries to pull off. (Salamance still gonna outperform it as an offensive dragon dancer and mixed wallbreaker. Latios is there if you want a special sweeper or defogger. Dragonite's got the bulky dancer and dedicated roost tank niche)

    However, in UU, those options will be absolutely amazing.

    And might push Hydregion to BL.
    I can agree that most are probably just going to be fun niches from time to time - which works for me because that's why I used to play this game in the first place - but Hydreigon will definitely be an OU threat. If something as slow and predictable as Kommo-O can be OU in a meta with four Tapus, Hydreigon will have no problems in a meta where a number of OU threats - including the four Tapus - will be absent courtesy of Sword/Shield.

    None of the dragons you listed are really that analogous to Hydreigon. They lack its easily spamable Dark STAB, which Hydreigon can take full advantage of thanks to having a multitude of base 80 Dark attacks on both the physical and special side unlike Mence and Dragonite which both have the choice between a base 60 move or a 2-turn move to make the most of their secondary type(Flying). Latis are cool but they also lack the Dark STAB and get walled by Steel-types unless you forego Roost for a coverage move whereas Hydre won't have that problem thanks to that easy to spam Dark typing I mentioned earlier.

    The only real comparison to Hydre is Hoopa, and that boy was a scary threat. It could hit from both the physical and special side, it had Dark STAB which could hit incoming Steel types for neutral damage. The only thing that kept it in check was its Gardevoir-tier speed and its Gardevoir-tier physical defense, which will be two things that Hydreigon won't have to worry about.
    Last edited by Helly; November 13th, 2019, 02:30 PM.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Helly View Post

      I can agree that most are probably just going to be fun niches from time to time - which works for me because that's why I used to play this game in the first place - but Hydreigon will definitely be an OU threat. If something as slow and predictable as Kommo-O can be OU, Hydreigon will have no problems in a meta where a number of OU threats - including the four Tapus - will be absent courtesy of Sword/Shield.

      None of the dragons you listed are really that analogous to Hydreigon. They lack its easily spamable Dark STAB, which Hydreigon can take full advantage of thanks to having a multitude of base 80 Dark attacks on both the physical and special side unlike Mence and Dragonite which both have the choice between a base 60 move or a 2-turn move to make the most of their secondary type(Flying). Latis are cool but they also lack the Dark STAB and get walled by Steel-types unless you forego Roost for a coverage move whereas Hydre won't have that problem thanks to that easy to spam Dark typing I mentioned earlier.

      The only real comparison to Hydre is Hoopa, and that boy was a scary threat. It could hit from both the physical and special side, it had Dark STAB which could hit incoming Steel types for neutral damage. The only thing that kept it in check was its Gardevoir-tier speed and its Gardevoir-tier physical defense, which will be two things that Hydreigon won't have to worry about.
      Kommo-O is OU because it has a super busted omni-boosting Z Move that makes it faster than the entire unboosted meta, hit like a truck, and too bulky to be easily revenge killed all after a single turn of set-up (where in addition to setting up, its also firing off a nuke).

      Its 'predictable' only because it does something so dangerous, it has no real reason to ever be doing anything else.

      If it was just a diverse mixed attacker with unpredictable coverage and the option of trying to conventionally boost-and-sweep with dragon dance, it would be BL or UU.

      Hoopa-U is probably the most analogous example of how Hydregion can be expected to perform in OU with its new toys.

      I think you're somewhat overstating Hydregion's speed and survivability when you say that it isn't going to suffer from the same issues that have stopped Hoopa from being a more common threat.

      OU is generally at a place now where the speed difference between the two is pretty negligable; both falling into the middling no-mans-land of fast enough to outspeed walls and uninvested bulky attackers; but still slower than every relevant purely offensive beast from Mega-Zard through Ash-Gerninja.

      And yeahhhhhhhhh--you can distinguish Hydregion form Hoopa-U by giving it roost and investing a bit in its bulk to make it defensively usable.

      But at that point, why aren't you just running Dragonite?
      Last edited by Post-Crisis Shob; November 13th, 2019, 05:12 PM.

      Comment


        Gen 8 OU lookin like a real piece of shit
        Gen 8 Natdex OU lookin like a real clusterfuck
        Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
        Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

        Comment


          Originally posted by Post-Crisis Shob View Post

          Kommo-O is OU because it has a super busted omni-boosting Z Move that makes it faster than the entire unboosted meta, hit like a truck, and too bulky to be easily revenge killed all after a single turn of set-up (where in addition to setting up, its also firing off a nuke).

          Its 'predictable' only because it does something so dangerous, it has no real reason to ever be doing anything else.

          If it was just a diverse mixed attacker with unpredictable coverage and the option of trying to conventionally boost-and-sweep with dragon dance, it would be BL or UU.

          Hoopa-U is probably the most analogous example of how Hydregion can be expected to perform in OU with its new toys.

          I think you're somewhat overstating Hydregion's speed and survivability when you say that it isn't going to suffer from the same issues that have stopped Hoopa from being a more common threat.

          OU is generally at a place now where the speed difference between the two is pretty negligable; both falling into the middling no-mans-land of fast enough to outspeed walls and uninvested bulky attackers; but still slower than every relevant purely offensive beast from Mega-Zard through Ash-Gerninja.

          And yeahhhhhhhhh--you can distinguish Hydregion form Hoopa-U by giving it roost and investing a bit in its bulk to make it defensively usable.

          But at that point, why aren't you just running Dragonite?
          Fair enough, but that was the whole SM metagame in a nutshell, with everyone losing 2 or 3 mons to the one that got off its setup and had a Z-nuke to kill its checks after prior chip/SR damage. Kommo-O definitely wasn't the worst thing you could face off against, and even still it got to OU.


          My comment was in regards to the fact that Hydre now has a way to boost its speed, which would make it faster than alot of non-scarfers along with an attack boost to boot and a very strong physical movepool. Hoopa didn't have anything to boost its speed at all, otherwise it would have been a pretty centralizing threat.

          I definitely disagree that I'm overstating Hydre's tankiness. Keep in mind, Hydre's typing and ability gives it 2 immunities, 5 weaknesses, 5 neutral-hitting types, and 6 resistances. Of those 8 immunity/resistances, all but 2 are very commonly offensive STAB moves (the exceptions being Ghost and Grass). That gives it a great amount of openings against any teams using choiced pokemon, whereas with Hoopa you had only 1 immunity and basically everything else in the game hit you for neutral damage. This limited its ability to switch into stuff that wasn't hitting from the special side, and even then it would take pretty huge damage from STAB Hydro. Add on top of all of that the fact that Hydre has a higher HP and PhysDef stat, and you really start to appreciate how different the two of them are defensively.

          Like I said, its advantage over Mence and Nite is that its secondary typing (Dark) can be easily taken advantage of because its moves for that type are actually pretty good and don't force you to choose between a 60 BP move or a move that has 100+ BP but also takes two turns to execute. And like Flying, Dark is a very good type to have STAB for because of how spamable stuff like Pulse, Crunch, and Knock Off are. Even after the introduction of Fairies, even after the introduction of the 4 Tapus, Dark STAB was still really, really good to have.

          Comment


            No Landorus, no Tapus, no Greninja, no Magearna, no Z moves, no CHANSEY.
            Looking like a fire meta. Dynamax might end up worse than Z moves though.

            Comment


              If only Toxapex didn't escape Gamefreak's Thanos snap.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Ladd View Post
                No Landorus, no Tapus, no Greninja, no Magearna, no Z moves, no CHANSEY.
                Looking like a fire meta. Dynamax might end up worse than Z moves though.
                Meta was already fine if you weren't a pleb and played RU instead tbh
                Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

                Comment


                  Over 100 pages of competitive Pokefaggotry itt

                  HOLY shit, you try-hard vulvas

                  Comment


                    Eternatus stats are ridiculous :P

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post
                      Eternatus stats are ridiculous :P
                      His form isn't usable
                      Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                      Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

                      Comment


                        what did I miss

                        Comment


                        • DokTOR.
                          DokTOR. commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Gen 8 sucks ass and weather wars are back

                        • Louay
                          Louay commented
                          Editing a comment
                          so just the usual

                        you know it's actually amazing that nintendo or gamefreak haven't had sent showdown a c&d
                        Originally posted by Kajin_Style
                        I have this illness called "Having-a-Heart" and gives me this irrational sense of empathy and care for my fellow man.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Pocket Rocket View Post
                          you know it's actually amazing that nintendo or gamefreak haven't had sent showdown a c&d
                          I was just talking about that with a friend of mine, it makes no sense.
                          Originally posted by Wade
                          Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                          Comment


                            Showdown is open source. Several clones would pop back up. Not to mention multiple Nintendo and TPCi employees play on Showdown and they've sponsored Showdown users like Pokeaim and Wolfe Glick
                            Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                            Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by DokTOR. View Post
                              Showdown is open source. Several clones would pop back up. Not to mention multiple Nintendo and TPCi employees play on Showdown and they've sponsored Showdown users like Pokeaim and Wolfe Glick
                              Yeah, that explains it
                              Last edited by OrganizationXV; November 14th, 2019, 09:27 PM.
                              Originally posted by Wade
                              Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by DokTOR. View Post

                                Meta was already fine if you weren't a pleb and played RU instead tbh
                                um ew

                                Originally posted by Pocket Rocket View Post
                                you know it's actually amazing that nintendo or gamefreak haven't had sent showdown a c&d
                                i think they see it as an easy gateway to get people into the competitive aspect, thus possibly assuring they will become invested into the series and buy their newer games as they come out.

                                idgaf about the games, personally. no challenge to them even if you play a blind nuzlocke. whole thing feels like an extended tutorial where your PC is the biggest gary stu meme

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Helly View Post
                                  idgaf about the games, personally. no challenge to them even if you play a blind nuzlocke. whole thing feels like an extended tutorial where your PC is the biggest gary stu meme
                                  That's exactly why it amazes me. There's really no reason to put up with Gamefreak's mediocre everything when you can just get right to the gameplay for free. Unless you want to watch the gripping tale of a little British boy stopping the evil team with his tranny flag colored buttplug Pokemon lol.
                                  Originally posted by Kajin_Style
                                  I have this illness called "Having-a-Heart" and gives me this irrational sense of empathy and care for my fellow man.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Helly View Post

                                    um ew



                                    i think they see it as an easy gateway to get people into the competitive aspect, thus possibly assuring they will become invested into the series and buy their newer games as they come out.

                                    idgaf about the games, personally. no challenge to them even if you play a blind nuzlocke. whole thing feels like an extended tutorial where your PC is the biggest gary stu meme
                                    Who actually buys a Pokemon game for the competitive aspect? That's absurd, considering all the hoops you have to jump through to min-max your team.
                                    Originally posted by Wade
                                    Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                                      Who actually buys a Pokemon game for the competitive aspect? That's absurd, considering all the hoops you have to jump through to min-max your team.
                                      People who compete in tournaments presumably

                                      ​​​​But if you're not one of the few """pros""" you can just use showdown
                                      Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                                      Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by DokTOR. View Post

                                        People who compete in tournaments presumably

                                        ​​​​But if you're not one of the few """pros""" you can just use showdown
                                        Imagine putting 100+ hours of play time into pokemon so that you could make mostly the same team you spent 100+ hours on the last game to make, then getting $60 ready once the new game gets announced so you can make the same team again.

                                        then imagine getting pissed because you don't have the same pokemon again.
                                        Originally posted by Wade
                                        Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                                        Comment

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