Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Which of Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece is the deepest series?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #61
    Apparently it's not simple. The genre by itsef is irrelevant to relatability.
    Genre? I'm talking about the literal status of being of them in relation to the modern person.

    A question this plain can only be answered with regards to preference.
    In the same breath however you have to factor probability. Naruto's probability of relating to individuals or connecting via depth are exponentially higher than Bleach on average via the sheer volume of fans, who vocally express said ideas or try to imitate them.

    From then on it depends on if the story can keep it's viewers.
    Which Naruto has for over 2 decades and counting now.

    I think it's safe to say that none or an insignificant amount of viewers are ninjas or pirates or spiritual mediums.
    Never said they were, they also undeniably have a better chance of relating to something more akin to being human no doubt. So again Bleach is at the bottom.

    Because that's how Ichigo started btw.
    For like 2 minutes before he got Rukia's powers and started fighting eldritch abominations left and right.

    So the point you're trying to make makes it impossible for anyone to relate to any fantasy-based fiction.
    Absolutely not I specifically wrote "What will a 21st Century human being relate to more" key word MORE not AT ALL. There's a certain scale there.

    Yes
    Thank you.

    Okay, some of these may count for depth. I'm sure you're aware that a relatable character is not automatically deep.
    Am I talking about characters in general or the specific ones I named from Naruto? Because I am making no generalization of that nature.

    I'm just making sure.
    No you weren't. You didn't ask anything to double check you made a statement and ran with it as if I said the opposite. Which I had to repeat to you that I did not.

    I'm saying that for the purpose of the topic, which is depth,
    Again let's be clear, this discussion has clearly went from one topic to multiple sub one's and that falls on both of us.

    popularity is not a valid argument.
    It is a valid argument when you look at WHY it's popular, however by all means you don't have to consider it sound.
    Because there are different factors that determine what appeals to someone, not exclusively relatability,
    I know that's why I said "majority of Naruto fans don't either connect with the characters, are inspired by them, or look up to them."

    which is the term being used arguably for Naruto's depth.
    One of the terms.

    It neither denies nor confirms it. And it certainly doesn't suggest more depth.
    It confirms a greater probability for people to feel said depth.

    You are throwing way too many assumptions. I myself started to buy the Naruto games before even knowing what it was because I was a kid that simply enjoyed the gameplay. I did so with DBZ too. Hell, I still buy them today to enjoy the better-than-anime animations
    So it's an assumption to assume people are vicariously living through electronic characters...by playing as said characters?

    That's a nice story but it doesn't change neither the nature of video console gaming or the upward trends in said business. People play video games because it's an escape from their real lives and they get to be someone else. If you're buying the Naruto video games it because you want to be these characters.

    Pay attention to the story in the ultimate series. It's disjointed and scattered, each game tackling something different or starting at a different point. You at the very least need to be a consummate or dedicated fan to know the who, what, when, where, and why's of these games. And realistically speaking they are not good video games they are watered down play by play's of anime scenes.

    Also my argument is supported by the rise and eventual domination of VR(Virtual Reality) in gaming as people seek something more realistic in what they vicariously live through.
    The audience is also a factor for popularity.
    There would be no audience if the story didn't have certain merits.

    It's an assumption that the depth of the series is the source of the relatability of the majority of the consumers. That's another thing entirely. Relating to Naruto is not the same thing as relating to the themes in Naruto, nor that they are more, nor that they are deeper.
    Theres no assumption being made. Naruto's most singular message varies in depth based on it's representation in the story. That message is rather well known and understood so people are reacting positively to it, if they understand it they can relate to the motivations and message. At what level is debatable.

    Okay that counts. But it's one. One which the other series share.
    By what metric would the other series being pushing a message so pervasive in Naruto it even shows up in the techniques?

    If Kishi was obvious about it, then all the more reason.
    It was indeed obvious but Kishi did peddle his vision in varying ways not all as obvious or subtle and still plentiful is depth and meaning, enough to be taken in by the masses effectively at different levels.

    Remember how I said that the audience is a factor? This is still an argument of popularity and does not support depth.

    You're arguments so far, excluding the ones I said that "count"^, water down to "because it's more popular, it must be more relatable, hence deeper."

    You're supposed to convince me and/or the others of the themes that Naruto portrays and how it does it "better," through your own analysis, and not through -and it applies- argumentum ad populum.
    Again the situation is you have to look critically at WHY something is popular sometimes, being popular doesn't exclude a legitimate argument arising from a cross examination of how we got to this point(think statistical studies), there is a valid reason to investigate here which I have been doing, as there is commodity or something of value present when looking here.

    Dude, I'm not angry
    I didn't say you were, you did "I'm angry."

    What exactly am I doing that irritates you?
    You're being too in your face and policing things.

    You're taking my jabs too seriously. I asked for an example explicitly and you said "everything." I wanted specifics which you only just gave right now
    I actually didn't take it seriously at all, which is why I didn't go into detail right away as your initial responses did not in any way warrant such.

    Hey, it's one of my hobbies to participate in these discussions.
    There is nothing wrong with that, but don't go around being in your face about it and expect not to be called out.

    If yours is to laugh it up then enjoy. Just try to not go too off-topic while you're at it since, afaik, it's a rule.
    Than don't respond to a discussion that is "off-topic" when you fueled it.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Erised
      Genre? I'm talking about the literal status of being of them in relation to the modern person.

      In the same breath however you have to factor probability. Naruto's probability of relating to individuals or connecting via depth are exponentially higher than Bleach on average via the sheer volume of fans, who vocally express said ideas or try to imitate them.

      Which Naruto has for over 2 decades and counting now.

      Never said they were, they also undeniably have a better chance of relating to something more akin to being human no doubt. So again Bleach is at the bottom.

      For like 2 minutes before he got Rukia's powers and started fighting eldritch abominations left and right.

      Absolutely not I specifically wrote "What will a 21st Century human being relate to more" key word MORE not AT ALL. There's a certain scale there.
      Again, relatable =/= deep. So this^ is pointless.

      Am I talking about characters in general or the specific ones I named from Naruto? Because I am making no generalization of that nature.

      No you weren't. You didn't ask anything to double check you made a statement and ran with it as if I said the opposite. Which I had to repeat to you that I did not.

      Again let's be clear, this discussion has clearly went from one topic to multiple sub one's and that falls on both of us.
      I want to move on from that so I'm keeping it short.

      It is a valid argument when you look at WHY it's popular, however by all means you don't have to consider it sound.
      It's not valid because it's a circular reasoning. "It's deep because it's popular because it's deep." Popularity proves nothing. You would have to survey each fan to see if specific themes of the series are what captivated them to then confirm it. And it still wouldn't prove it's deeper in the end. Because an obscure writer is still capable of writing "better" even if the work is not published.

      So it's an assumption to assume people are vicariously living through electronic characters...by playing as said characters?

      That's a nice story but it doesn't change neither the nature of video console gaming or the upward trends in said business. People play video games because it's an escape from their real lives and they get to be someone else. If you're buying the Naruto video games it because you want to be these characters.

      Pay attention to the story in the ultimate series. It's disjointed and scattered, each game tackling something different or starting at a different point. You at the very least need to be a consummate or dedicated fan to know the who, what, when, where, and why's of these games. And realistically speaking they are not good video games they are watered down play by play's of anime scenes.

      Also my argument is supported by the rise and eventual domination of VR(Virtual Reality) in gaming as people seek something more realistic in what they vicariously live through.
      I just told you my example. And in logic, one single counterexample is all that is needed to render an argument invalid. So unless you're suggesting that I'm lying about the reasons why I bought the games, then that's over.

      Theres no assumption being made.
      I'm just gonna repeat the same thing

      By what metric would the other series being pushing a message so pervasive in Naruto it even shows up in the techniques?
      I'm assuming you mean "begin*" and that, by techniques, you mean the abilities of the characters?
      If it's the case, then that's the purpose of the thread.

      It was indeed obvious but Kishi did peddle his vision in varying ways not all as obvious or subtle and still plentiful is depth and meaning, enough to be taken in by the masses effectively at different levels.
      Forget about the masses. That tells me nothing. You tell me at what levels you interpret it.

      Again the situation is you have to look critically at WHY something is popular sometimes, being popular doesn't exclude a legitimate argument arising from a cross examination of how we got to this point(think statistical studies), there is a valid reason to investigate here which I have been doing, as there is commodity or something of value present when looking here.
      Being popular is your argument

      I didn't say you were, you did "I'm angry."

      You're being too in your face and policing things.

      I actually didn't take it seriously at all, which is why I didn't go into detail right away as your initial responses did not in any way warrant such.

      There is nothing wrong with that, but don't go around being in your face about it and expect not to be called out.

      Than don't respond to a discussion that is "off-topic" when you fueled it.
      Got it

      Comment


        #63
        One of Them

        Again, relatable =/= deep. So this^ is pointless.
        Ignoring intersectionality that doesn't constitute something absolute which I haven't either.

        I want to move on from that so I'm keeping it short.
        How considerate of you.

        It's not valid because it's a circular reasoning. "It's deep because it's popular because it's deep."
        No, it's valid because we are looking at HOW it became popular not that it's popular.

        Popularity proves nothing.
        Automatically dismissing it doesn't disprove anything either. You can glean solid details from numbers.

        You would have to survey each fan to see if specific themes of the series are what captivated them to then confirm it.
        Why would I have to survey each fan when I already have Naruto multi media statistics.

        And it still wouldn't prove it's deeper in the end. Because an obscure writer is still capable of writing "better" even if the work is not published.
        Pointless remark as I never said popularity trumps everything under it. That would ignore the nuance of the situation.

        I just told you my example. And in logic, one single counterexample is all that is needed to render an argument invalid. So unless you're suggesting that I'm lying about the reasons why I bought the games, then that's over.
        Except your counter example wasn't relevant or satisfactory. I left my statement open ended, therefore there is room for your own example that is still heavily outweighed by the rest of buyers(hinting majority) since I never boxed myself in with a statement like "All or Nothing".

        I'm just gonna repeat the same thing
        Alright.

        I'm assuming you mean "begin*" and that, by techniques, you mean the abilities of the characters?
        If it's the case, then that's the purpose of the thread.
        Perfect. I'm right on the mark than.

        Forget about the masses. That tells me nothing. You tell me at what levels you interpret it.
        This doesn't help you at all, and is fairly easy to counter. You wanna list? You'll get one.

        Zabuza & Haku(Dehumanization)
        Orochimaru(Greed and Sadism)
        Itachi(Duty)
        Sasori(Nihilism)
        Pain(Revenge)
        Danzo(Extreme-ism)
        Obito("Greater Good")
        Madara(Messiah Complex)
        Kaguya(Absolute power absolutely corrupts)

        Also multiply by the story lines they were contained in and corresponding characters/techniques.

        Being popular is your argument
        No HOW things become popular is.

        Got it
        You better.

        Comment


          #64
          Man, look at the walls of text in this joke thread

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Erised
            Ignoring intersectionality that doesn't constitute something absolute which I haven't either.
            Except your counter example wasn't relevant or satisfactory. I left my statement open ended, therefore there is room for your own example that is still heavily outweighed by the rest of buyers(hinting majority) since I never boxed myself in with a statement like "All or Nothing".
            Yes you did, whether you're aware of it or not. Be more mindful of your words. A lot of this irrelevant clusterfuck started because of it. It turns out dismissible.

            No, it's valid because we are looking at HOW it became popular not that it's popular.

            Automatically dismissing it doesn't disprove anything either. You can glean solid details from numbers.

            Why would I have to survey each fan when I already have Naruto multi media statistics.
            lolno
            The stats only say it's popular, not why.

            Pointless remark as I never said popularity trumps everything under it. That would ignore the nuance of the situation.
            No HOW things become popular is [my argument].
            No. Popularity is your premise and depth is your conclusion.

            Zabuza & Haku(Dehumanization)
            That was a good one. I think the anime made it more powerful though(music and whatnot)

            Orochimaru(Greed and Sadism)
            Itachi(Duty)
            Sasori(Nihilism)
            Danzo(Extreme-ism)
            Obito("Greater Good")
            Madara(Messiah Complex)
            Kaguya(Absolute power absolutely corrupts)
            These are present in one or both of the others. A few of the characters are even similar in attitude and occupation, reasonably so, I'd say.

            Pain(Revenge)
            Nah, Pain has a much richer one. I want to call it Justice.

            Revenge suits Sasuke more.

            Why would you say this?
            Naruto, One Piece, Bleach. None of these are particularly deep at all.

            Comment


              #66
              One of Them

              Yes you did, whether you're aware of it or not. Be more mindful of your words. A lot of this irrelevant clusterfuck started because of it. It turns out dismissible.
              No I didn't unless you can point out where/how I did.

              lolno
              The stats only say it's popular, not why.
              And as I said it's popular because of the following things I listed in regards to gaming or VR.

              No. Popularity is your premise and depth is your conclusion.
              And the "HOW" is the main body to validate my conclusion.

              That was a good one. I think the anime made it more powerful though(music and whatnot)
              Okay?

              These are present in one or both of the others. A few of the characters are even similar in attitude and occupation, reasonably so, I'd say.
              Well of course none of them are one dimensional or singular representations of a concept or idea however they all push certain ideas more extremely than the other. There is a blur between Obito/Madara/Kaguya since their goals are linked and Madara trained Obito to be like him.

              Nah, Pain has a much richer one. I want to call it Justice.

              Revenge suits Sasuke more.
              He became a victim of the same cycle of hatred that he tried to break, he became needlessly cruel at certain points that wasn't justice just him being petty. He's just the exact example of what the cycle of hatred warps Justice into.

              Why would you say this?
              I said that because while deep it's isn't exactly thought provoking when compared to other fictitious materials. A fantastic example is HBO's "Westworld" which actually dives quite far into the Humanity & Technology, Society etc. Leaves you with many things to consider on all sides to work on for the better moving forward, that actually are very relevant in the world we live in and soon will one day.
              Last edited by Erised; March 19th, 2019, 09:19 PM.

              Comment


                #67
                One Piece is still the best.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Erised View Post
                  No I didn't unless you can point out where/how I did.

                  And as I said it's popular because of the following things I listed in regards to gaming or VR.

                  And the "HOW" is the main body to validate my conclusion.
                  Forget it, we're going in circles

                  Okay?
                  You don't agree?

                  Well of course none of them are one dimensional or singular representations of a concept or idea however they all push certain ideas more extremely than the other. There is a blur between Obito/Madara/Kaguya since their goals are linked and Madara trained Obito to be like him.
                  I meant between titles. For example, how Orochimaru, which you list as greed, shares similarities with Aaroniero in abilities, which is also intended to represent greed. They both consume a person and absorb their body and their abilities. And, as much as I hate to bring it up, so does Wapol

                  He became a victim of the same cycle of hatred that he tried to break, he became needlessly cruel at certain points that wasn't justice just him being petty. He's just the exact example of what the cycle of hatred warps Justice into.
                  Except Pain wasn't particularly bloodlusted, unlike Sasuke. Pain excercised his own criterion of justice, which I think should be the point. Because just as you say "warps," I say "isn't it already?" Justice is a construct that the entire human race has yet to agree upon in all of history.

                  Despite destroying the Leaf Village, he still made Naruto stop in his tracks in his attempt to finish off Pain to reflect on what was fair.

                  I said that because while deep it's isn't exactly thought provoking when compared to other fictitious materials. A fantastic example is HBO's "Westworld" which actually dives quite far into the Humanity & Technology, Society etc. Leaves you with many things to consider on all sides to work on for the better moving forward, that actually are very relevant in the world we live in and soon will one day.
                  I haven't seen further than the first episode yet but I consider the above to be pretty relevant right now.
                  Last edited by One of Them; March 23rd, 2019, 08:49 AM.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    One Piece by far
                    Beerus = Universal = Fact

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post
                      One Piece is still the best.
                      Lol

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                        Lol
                        You don't agree? Fight me boi!

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post

                          You don't agree? Fight me boi!

                          We've been over this enough times to know where we disagree, though. I have a problem with the tone and pacing of the story, as well as the excessive reliance on gags and character traits that just don't work out. You, on the other hand, are dumb and like those things.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            One Piece because it's about the ocean.
                            Nintendo Switch Friend Code: SW-1133-0048-8436 (MMCulpaTTV)
                            Don't forget to check out MothMageCulpa's Twitch Channel! - Join the Swarm today and Follow, subscribe, or donate!
                            PSN Username- NikolaCulpa Trophy Level: 25. Platinums: 75 - Check me out on Twitch to see what I'm currently playing!

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                              We've been over this enough times to know where we disagree, though. I have a problem with the tone and pacing of the story, as well as the excessive reliance on gags and character traits that just don't work out. You, on the other hand, are dumb and like those things.
                              You take yourself too serious if you think Bleach and Naruto are better than One Piece. Also the more obnoxious gag stuff is usually explained. As for Luffy and his carefree attitude, that's just how he is. You think Ichigo changed when he nearly died? How about Naruto when Jiraiya died, did he change? Nope and nope.

                              In the end, I feel you have no real reason for disliking One Piece beyond it is just not your cup of tea. It happens and that's ok. HOWEVER.... I'm gonna beat your ass if you think anyone who does like it is dumb or lesser for it.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post

                                You take yourself too serious if you think Bleach and Naruto are better than One Piece. Also the more obnoxious gag stuff is usually explained. As for Luffy and his carefree attitude, that's just how he is. You think Ichigo changed when he nearly died? How about Naruto when Jiraiya died, did he change? Nope and nope.

                                In the end, I feel you have no real reason for disliking One Piece beyond it is just not your cup of tea. It happens and that's ok. HOWEVER.... I'm gonna beat your ass if you think anyone who does like it is dumb or lesser for it.

                                :sbgoku::cookieloud::ssbgou:
                                No, I just think Bleach and Naruto are better than One Piece because I enjoyed reading through them both, and I never considered it a chore like I often do for OP.

                                I don't really care about Luffy's character arc, he's just an awful character to begin with. Like, just absolute garbage. (Also, Naruto did appreciably change as time went on, but that's beside the point.)

                                I don't think you're lesser for liking One Piece. I think that you like One Piece because you're lesser!

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post
                                  You think Ichigo changed when he nearly died? How about Naruto when Jiraiya died, did he change? Nope and nope.
                                  Off topic but what exactly is your point here?

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                                    No, I just think Bleach and Naruto are better than One Piece because I enjoyed reading through them both, and I never considered it a chore like I often do for OP.

                                    I don't really care about Luffy's character arc, he's just an awful character to begin with. Like, just absolute garbage. (Also, Naruto did appreciably change as time went on, but that's beside the point.)

                                    I don't think you're lesser for liking One Piece. I think that you like One Piece because you're lesser!
                                    Dat's it! We fighting! Meet me outside!

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                                      Off topic but what exactly is your point here?
                                      Orgy doesntd like Luffy because he didn't change despite the trauma he went through .(Ace dying and losing his crew) after the 2 year time skip he stood relatively the same.

                                      Which is not much different than Ichigo and Naruto and their traumatic events. Neither grew into a better person.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post

                                        Orgy doesntd like Luffy because he didn't change despite the trauma he went through .(Ace dying and losing his crew) after the 2 year time skip he stood relatively the same.

                                        Which is not much different than Ichigo and Naruto and their traumatic events. Neither grew into a better person.
                                        Again, Luffy was bad to begin with. The fact that he never grows out of it makes it unforgivable, but his lack of character growth wouldn't be so bad if he was ok to begin with

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Also, fite me kajin. Meet me at the swing set at 3:07

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X