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Which of Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece is the deepest series?

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    #41
    Originally posted by One of Them View Post
    In Naruto and Bleach, it's villains that take this role. And they fail
    Technically there were no villains in Bleach until Tokinada, in the Novel Hisagi is the main character as he is looking into everything as it unfolds before him without bias as a reporter, with Ichigo it always painted the Soul Society as the good guys, now we see how corrupt the shinigami are, the fact that Yhwach was merely trying to restore the universe to how it was to stop death, give mercy to his father who was betrayed with the first sin, we also now know that Urahara pretty much had the same view as Aizen regarding the current state of the soul king but he had problems with Aizen's approach, no one is ever the bad guy even with Ginjo being betrayed and lied to as both him and Ukitake are manipulated, everything is gray (except Tokinada)

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      #42
      Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post

      Technically there were no villains in Bleach until Tokinada, in the Novel Hisagi is the main character as he is looking into everything as it unfolds before him without bias as a reporter, with Ichigo it always painted the Soul Society as the good guys, now we see how corrupt the shinigami are, the fact that Yhwach was merely trying to restore the universe to how it was to stop death, give mercy to his father who was betrayed with the first sin, we also now know that Urahara pretty much had the same view as Aizen regarding the current state of the soul king but he had problems with Aizen's approach, no one is ever the bad guy even with Ginjo being betrayed and lied to as both him and Ukitake are manipulated, everything is gray (except Tokinada)
      Antagonists, I should have said

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by Starlight Extinction View Post
        Depth is meaningless, true quality comes from how entertaining it is
        Entertainment is relative

        Comment


          #44
          Naruto, One Piece, Bleach. None of these are particularly deep at all. But I'll choose Naruto, since OP is immature and cringey, and Bleach is un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by Erised View Post
            Naruto, One Piece, Bleach. None of these are particularly deep at all.
            Oh they are plenty deep.

            But I'll choose Naruto, since OP is immature and cringey,
            That's a very shallow overview of One Piece

            and Bleach is un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way.
            I would like to see you name one example in which Naruto does more or better

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by One of Them View Post
              Oh they are plenty deep.

              That's a very shallow overview of One Piece

              I would like to see you name one example in which Naruto does more or better
              Keep thinking that.

              Less shallow than your response for sure though.

              I feel so sorry for you, you must really care about Bleach to still be this angry all these years later since MVC. Anyway how about...everything since it actually resonated with audiences to become THE number one anime on this planet. Where I'm from Bleach was canned of Friday night cartoon television in no time because of how bored audiences were with it.
              Last edited by Erised; March 8th, 2019, 11:03 PM.

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by Erised
                Keep thinking that.

                Less shallow than your response for sure though.

                I feel so sorry for you, you must really care about Bleach to still be this rabid all these years later since MVC. Anyway how about...everything since it actually resonated with audiences to become THE number one anime on this planet. Where I'm from Bleach was canned of Friday night cartoon television in no time because of how bored audiences were with it.
                I have a younger cousin that, when asked to provide an example of a certain topic he wants to make a point in, and can't even think of one, he replies with something like "oh, maaany many things" lol.

                I can't believe you actually pulled an argumentum ad populum while simultaneously failing to deliver a proper response.

                By the way, One Piece outsells every Shonen manga ever made and is ongoing despite starting before Naruto. So by your own faulty logic, YOU admit One Piece is better than Naruto lmao. Yup, feel sorry for me.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                  I have a younger cousin that, when asked to provide an example of a certain topic he wants to make a point in, and can't even think of one, he replies with something like "oh, maaany many things" lol.

                  I can't believe you actually pulled an argumentum ad populum while simultaneously failing to deliver a proper response.

                  By the way, One Piece outsells every Shonen manga ever made and is ongoing despite starting before Naruto. So by your own faulty logic, YOU admit One Piece is better than Naruto lmao. Yup, feel sorry for me.

                  *Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.

                  I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.

                  Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.

                  Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.
                  Last edited by Erised; March 9th, 2019, 12:05 AM.

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                    #49
                    Naruto was definitely the deeper series.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by Erised View Post


                      *Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.

                      I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.

                      Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.

                      Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.
                      Ok. But don't let that distract you from the fact that BLEACH is the GOAT of GOATS.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by Erised
                        *Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.
                        It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

                        Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

                        I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.
                        First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

                        So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

                        In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

                        Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.
                        Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

                        Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.
                        You said so yourself, I'm angry.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          why are you people taking this thread seriously

                          Comment


                          • One of Them
                            One of Them commented
                            Editing a comment
                            You'd think that you'd want a real discussion in the thread that you made :\

                          • P408370R
                            P408370R commented
                            Editing a comment
                            One of Them

                            That's the thing: there is no real discussion to be had.

                            If you disagree or enjoy discussing this, however, have fun with it! :}

                          • One of Them
                            One of Them commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Yes, yes, and yes

                          #53
                          Seriously speaking, I wanna say that Naruto is the deepest due to featuring the biggest collection of strong, overarching themes amongst these, but some of them were very poorly handled (particularly the case where one's greatness can be decided through hard work and not being born for it). One Piece's tone might be immature at many times, but it doesn't betray its messages like Naruto. Bleach doesn't seem to have any major prevalent themes like the other two. Could be wrong, though.

                          Comment


                          • DokTOR.
                            DokTOR. commented
                            Editing a comment
                            One piece is all about destiny and blood line too lmao

                          • General Naruto
                            General Naruto commented
                            Editing a comment
                            That wasn't a main theme.
                            It was lee's Theme during the Chunin Exams.

                          #54
                          Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                          It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

                          Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

                          First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

                          So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

                          In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

                          Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

                          You said so yourself, I'm angry.
                          I don't see how you can't understand his argument about relating to Naruto More , going to school, seeing people being jumped, being attacked by bullies, prejudice against appearance, wanting to keep one's friends and family safe in the current timeline set in our world these are all unrealistic, but ninja's with giant monsters inside of them being attacked by aliens with hand eyes, now that I relate to :P

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                          • One of Them
                            One of Them commented
                            Editing a comment
                            That's because the majority of the kids that pick up Naruto are obviously attention whores that relate with Naruto's vandalism and constant rejection.

                          #55
                          Originally posted by Tenryuunaito View Post
                          Seriously speaking, I wanna say that Naruto is the deepest due to featuring the biggest collection of strong, overarching themes amongst these, but some of them were very poorly handled (particularly the case where one's greatness can be decided through hard work and not being born for it).
                          To think that Naruto threw that out just at the end of the final arc. Well, at least it stayed true to it with Lee, maybe.

                          One Piece's tone might be immature at many times, but it doesn't betray its messages like Naruto.
                          Why immature? I don't get this term

                          Bleach doesn't seem to have any major prevalent themes like the other two. Could be wrong, though.
                          Well in the case of Ichigo, one of the most recurring themes is dealing with situations that butcher your resolve. This is portrayed by Zangetsu(s) in his inner world(you know, with the rain and the shape of the city.) The point is that despair fills up every time Ichigo hits a dead end, and he does it a lot. You have to remember that, unlike the standard Shonen MC, Ichigo is dragged into a world that is too big for him, and he didn't even want a part of. But he always ends up accepting, assimilating, and overcoming the source of his despair, and winning in the end.

                          Edit: To expand on the theme of despair, White Zangetsu personifies it most of the time, though Fake Zangetsu also had a hand. And it is in "the Blade is Me" that Ichigo fully comes to term with them and refers to both of them as himself.
                          Because technically, despair is developed in one's own mind, and it's only as big as one makes it out to be.
                          Last edited by One of Them; March 9th, 2019, 10:53 AM.

                          Comment


                            #56
                            Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                            It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

                            Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

                            First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

                            So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

                            In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

                            Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

                            You said so yourself, I'm angry.
                            It's ironically actually quite simple. Riddle me this. What will a 21st Century human being relate to more? Ninjas, Pirates or GHOSTS & GHOST MONSTERS?

                            Relatable is being able to see yourself in something or someone to setup understanding. This is where Naruto's layout is marketing genius. They hit every single stereotype in their main cast and more. And by making them the main cast is cast an air of inclusiveness.
                            • Are you a bonafide loser looking for a comeup? Here's Naruto
                            • Are you the mysterious cool guy with a seedy past? Here's Sasuke
                            • Are you the vapid popular girl? Here's Sakura
                            • Are you the fat, desperate one? Here's Choji
                            • Are you the bitch? Here's Ino
                            • Are you lazy but soulful? Here's Shikamaru
                            • Are you the shy one with unrequited love? Here's Hinata
                            • Are you gross and creepy? Here's Shino
                            • Are you the talent less hard worker who won't quit? Here's Lee.
                            • Are you the pessimist secretly praying for some Hope? Here's Neji
                            I never said relate-ability was synonymous with entertainment or likability which is why I listed them apart "un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

                            It isn't automatic but to ignore sales and popularity as a factor is ridiculous. It doesn't have to go hand in hand with being sound to be valid. Donald Trump is a racist and misogynist and his rhetoric is stupid, BUT his base relates because it relates to deep south white America's racism and conservatism/ignorance so they related to him on a racially charged/. Lack of understanding of the way he appealed to his demo is why people were unprepared and surprised when he beat Hillary.

                            Same thing here it is simply untrue to suggest that the vast majority of Naruto fans don't either connect with the characters, are inspired by them, or look up to them. Ironically you mentioned video games which is the physical manifestation of my argument. The reason the Naruto Ultimate Ninja series and all other multi media games rake in so much money is because the same people who love the story in the manga/anime now want to vicariously live as the characters they seek to be through video games since they relate to them on some level. God knows those games are awful and only a fan of the manga/anime could love them.

                            Also don't be dense and ask me why I'm talking about relate-ability when in my original post and specifically ended and separated the points my comment on depth and than relate-ability with periods. You chose to respond to that even though you don't think it has a place in this thread, than continue to fuel it's presence in this thread despite said aversion. Should have just left your original quotation of my post at my comment on depth and worked your way up.

                            Furthermore let's be clear I brought it up as a mitigating factor because if something supposedly "deep" doesn't get you feeling some type of way or thinking hard after than in essence there's a block to said message hurting the ability to relate to it. And yes despite how upfront it was Naruto kept it's anti-war message reinforced from the very first arc until the end with every villain, every speech and every situation being a building block towards that undeniably by virtue of how over the top Kishi would sell said point. So damn right did it's message come out so much better than anything Bleach did, in fact Naruto as a series is practically synonymous with that in every way something someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of the series would know.

                            Lastly it's immature to be angry over this. I've noticed you've done this before on MVC and was frankly surprised and not surprised to see you doing the same song and dance in this thread after all these years. To suggest that I'm immature for a response you did with less detail when you've flown up and down this thread trying to police every comment is downright laughable.

                            Comment


                              #57
                              Originally posted by Cid View Post

                              Ok. But don't let that distract you from the fact that BLEACH is the GOAT of GOATS.
                              K, sis.

                              Comment


                                #58
                                Originally posted by Erised View Post

                                K, sis.
                                I'm a very smart and pretty big sis too, so don't you forget it and remember that I'm always right!

                                Comment


                                • Erised
                                  Erised commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Well you told me lol.

                                #59
                                Originally posted by Erised
                                It's ironically actually quite simple. Riddle me this. What will a 21st Century human being relate to more? Ninjas, Pirates or GHOSTS & GHOST MONSTERS?
                                Apparently it's not simple. The genre by itsef is irrelevant to relatability. A question this plain can only be answered with regards to preference. From then on it depends on if the story can keep it's viewers. I think it's safe to say that none or an insignificant amount of viewers are ninjas or pirates or spiritual mediums. Because that's how Ichigo started btw. So the point you're trying to make makes it impossible for anyone to relate to any fantasy-based fiction.

                                Relatable is being able to see yourself in something or someone to setup understanding.
                                Yes

                                This is where Naruto's layout is marketing genius. They hit every single stereotype in their main cast and more. And by making them the main cast is cast an air of inclusiveness.

                                Are you a bonafide loser looking for a comeup? Here's Naruto

                                Are you the mysterious cool guy with a seedy past? Here's Sasuke

                                Are you the vapid popular girl? Here's Sakura

                                Are you the fat, desperate one? Here's Choji

                                Are you the bitch? Here's Ino

                                Are you lazy but soulful? Here's Shikamaru

                                Are you the shy one with unrequited love? Here's Hinata

                                Are you gross and creepy? Here's Shino

                                Are you the talent less hard worker who won't quit? Here's Lee.

                                Are you the pessimist secretly praying for some Hope? Here's Neji
                                Okay, some of these may count for depth. I'm sure you're aware that a relatable character is not automatically deep.

                                I never said relate-ability was synonymous with entertainment or likability which is why I listed them apart "un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way."
                                I'm just making sure.

                                It isn't automatic but to ignore sales and popularity as a factor is ridiculous. It doesn't have to go hand in hand with being sound to be valid. Donald Trump is a racist and misogynist and his rhetoric is stupid, BUT his base relates because it relates to deep south white America's racism and conservatism/ignorance so they related to him on a racially charged/. Lack of understanding of the way he appealed to his demo is why people were unprepared and surprised when he beat Hillary.
                                I'm saying that for the purpose of the topic, which is depth, popularity is not a valid argument. Because there are different factors that determine what appeals to someone, not exclusively relatability, which is the term being used arguably for Naruto's depth.

                                Same thing here it is simply untrue to suggest that the vast majority of Naruto fans don't either connect with the characters, are inspired by them, or look up to them.
                                It neither denies nor confirms it. And it certainly doesn't suggest more depth.

                                Ironically you mentioned video games which is the physical manifestation of my argument. The reason the Naruto Ultimate Ninja series and all other multi media games rake in so much money is because the same people who love the story in the manga/anime now want to vicariously live as the characters they seek to be through video games since they relate to them on some level. God knows those games are awful and only a fan of the manga/anime could love them.
                                You are throwing way too many assumptions. I myself started to buy the Naruto games before even knowing what it was because I was a kid that simply enjoyed the gameplay. I did so with DBZ too. Hell, I still buy them today to enjoy the better-than-anime animations
                                The audience is also a factor for popularity.

                                Also don't be dense and ask me why I'm talking about relate-ability when in my original post and specifically ended and separated the points my comment on depth and than relate-ability with periods. You chose to respond to that even though you don't think it has a place in this thread, than continue to fuel it's presence in this thread despite said aversion. Should have just left your original quotation of my post at my comment on depth and worked your way up.

                                Furthermore let's be clear I brought it up as a mitigating factor because if something supposedly "deep" doesn't get you feeling some type of way or thinking hard after than in essence there's a block to said message hurting the ability to relate to it.
                                It's an assumption that the depth of the series is the source of the relatability of the majority of the consumers. That's another thing entirely. Relating to Naruto is not the same thing as relating to the themes in Naruto, nor that they are more, nor that they are deeper.

                                And yes despite how upfront it was Naruto kept it's anti-war message reinforced from the very first arc until the end with every villain, every speech and every situation being a building block towards that undeniably by virtue of how over the top Kishi would sell said point.
                                Okay that counts. But it's one. One which the other series share.


                                So damn right did it's message come out so much better than anything Bleach did, in fact Naruto as a series is practically synonymous with that in every way something someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of the series would know.
                                If Kishi was obvious about it, then all the more reason. Remember how I said that the audience is a factor? This is still an argument of popularity and does not support depth.

                                You're arguments so far, excluding the ones I said that "count"^, water down to "because it's more popular, it must be more relatable, hence deeper."

                                You're supposed to convince me and/or the others of the themes that Naruto portrays and how it does it "better," through your own analysis, and not through -and it applies- argumentum ad populum.

                                Lastly it's immature to be angry over this.
                                Dude, I'm not angry

                                I've noticed you've done this before on MVC and was frankly surprised and not surprised to see you doing the same song and dance in this thread after all these years.
                                What exactly am I doing that irritates you?

                                To suggest that I'm immature for a response you did with less detail
                                You're taking my jabs too seriously. I asked for an example explicitly and you said "everything." I wanted specifics which you only just gave right now

                                when you've flown up and down this thread trying to police every comment is downright laughable.
                                Hey, it's one of my hobbies to participate in these discussions. If yours is to laugh it up then enjoy. Just try to not go too off-topic while you're at it since, afaik, it's a rule.
                                Last edited by One of Them; March 9th, 2019, 11:20 PM.

                                Comment


                                  #60
                                  Originally posted by P408370R View Post
                                  why are you people taking this thread seriously
                                  Let it be known that Phob triggered the renaissance of vs with this thread.

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