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    Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post

    To add to this He wouldn't have escaped from Kirge's Jail by himself and he wouldn't have been used to slay the Soul King, There is also the motivation behind Yhwach being the reason to why Masaki died, which is what shaped him into the person he is as someone who wants to protect
    These things never would have occurred in the first place obviously. And Kubo already established Grand Fisher killing his mother as what shaped him into a person who wants to protect, retconning it to Yhacwh does nothing to change his character one way or another.

    Comment


      Originally posted by One of Them View Post
      Ichigo being a Quincy draws a direct connection between him and Yhwach. It has almost nothing to do with giving him cool powers.

      Actually, if Ichigo wasn't a Quincy, he'd have been slaughtered in the first invasion just because Yhwach would have considered him Shinigami fodder.
      There didn't need to be a connection, your main protagonist does not need a direct link to every single antagonist especially when you have already done that multiple times before.

      Comment


        Originally posted by EnemyOfDaState View Post
        And Kubo already established Grand Fisher killing his mother
        We were told that Isshin couldn't save her as he didn't have his powers at the time, this was the explanation for that, as that hadn't yet been established

        Comment


          Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post
          We were told that Isshin couldn't save her as he didn't have his powers at the time, this was the explanation for that, as that hadn't yet been established
          It doesn't matter what we as the reader have been told, in universe Ichigo's character motivations are because of his mothers death. The who or why is irrelevant to his character motivations because we learn very early on that he blames himself, if Kubo never reveals that Yhawch was the one really behind his mothers death what actually changes character wise?

          Comment


            Originally posted by EnemyOfDaState View Post
            There didn't need to be a connection, your main protagonist does not need a direct link to every single antagonist especially when you have already done that multiple times before.
            I just said how Ichigo being a Quincy is important to the story. To remove that would mean to rewrite the entire arc.

            Comment


              Originally posted by One of Them View Post
              I just said how Ichigo being a Quincy is important to the story. To remove that would mean to rewrite the entire arc.
              Which he should've, based on how it turned out. There's a lot of it that should've been rewritten.

              I don't even mind Ichigo being a quincy, there just needed to be a tangible reason for it (and some foreshadowing before the Thousand Year arc). Otherwise it comes off as a pointless retcon.
              Originally posted by EnemyOfDaState View Post

              These things never would have occurred in the first place obviously. And Kubo already established Grand Fisher killing his mother as what shaped him into a person who wants to protect, retconning it to Yhacwh does nothing to change his character one way or another.
              And speaking of pointless retcons, I forgot that they did that lol. That's, like, an almost offensive stretch.
              Last edited by OrganizationXV; March 25th, 2020, 07:22 PM.
              Originally posted by Wade
              Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

              Comment


                Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                Which he should've, based on how it turned out. There's a lot of it that should've been rewritten.
                Only thing that should have been rewritten is Byakuya staying dead. The rest is missing material, things that should be added.

                I don't even mind Ichigo being a quincy, there just needed to be a tangible reason for it (and some foreshadowing before the Thousand Year arc). Otherwise it comes off as a pointless retcon.
                Not everything needs to be foreshadowed with enough details that anyone would guess it. There were hints of mystery about Ichigo's origin and that's enough. That it turned out to be Quincy heritage, you dislike, is just plain preference and not an actual literary error.
                Kubo didn't retcon anything. He just added a layer to Masaki's death. Grand Fisher still killed her; she was simply a Quincy that had lost her powers this time.
                Last edited by One of Them; March 25th, 2020, 08:12 PM.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                  Which he should've, based on how it turned out. There's a lot of it that should've been rewritten.

                  I don't even mind Ichigo being a quincy, there just needed to be a tangible reason for it (and some foreshadowing before the Thousand Year arc). Otherwise it comes off as a pointless retcon.


                  And speaking of pointless retcons, I forgot that they did that lol. That's, like, an almost offensive stretch.
                  Which is where average people and hardcore Bleach fans part, everyone agrees it ended poorly but they think given enough time it would have been great while we think the entire premise was contrived from the jump. Also yeah it was BS just a cheap way to try and make us care about the villain, instead of making him interesting just say that he killed Ichigo's mom.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                    Only thing that should have been rewritten is Byakuya staying dead. The rest is missing material, things that should be added.

                    Not everything needs to be foreshadowed with enough details that anyone would guess it. There were hints of mystery about Ichigo's origin and that's enough. That it turned out to be Quincy heritage, you dislike, is just plain preference and not an actual literary error.
                    Kubo didn't retcon anything. He just added a layer to Masaki's death. Grand Fisher still killed her; she was simply a Quincy that had lost her powers this time.
                    Let me rephrase what I mean. He shouldn't rewrite the events of the early series with MAJOR plot points that he didn't consider until decades later. It's shallow writing, it honestly is. And that's why people don't like the Quincy idea, because it feels disingenuous to pretend like it was part of Ichigo's character arc when it clearly wasn't.

                    It's like with Naruto. Remember when Naruto and Sasuke's relationship was based on a mutual contempt, because of what each person saw the other as? Remember how it molded the both of them, allowed them to grow as people, and remember how every interaction they had was colored by this rivalry? And then remember when NOPE, they're reincarnated gods! They were destined to be like that!

                    It's a very similar thing here, I think. If you're that late into a series, and you had an idea for a character and then you suddenly change directions with it... At best, it's going to be clumsy, and at worst it's going to invalidate the older premise.
                    Originally posted by Wade
                    Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                      Let me rephrase what I mean. He shouldn't rewrite the events of the early series with MAJOR plot points that he didn't consider until decades later. It's shallow writing, it honestly is. And that's why people don't like the Quincy idea, because it feels disingenuous to pretend like it was part of Ichigo's character arc when it clearly wasn't.

                      It's like with Naruto. Remember when Naruto and Sasuke's relationship was based on a mutual contempt, because of what each person saw the other as? Remember how it molded the both of them, allowed them to grow as people, and remember how every interaction they had was colored by this rivalry? And then remember when NOPE, they're reincarnated gods! They were destined to be like that!

                      It's a very similar thing here, I think. If you're that late into a series, and you had an idea for a character and then you suddenly change directions with it... At best, it's going to be clumsy, and at worst it's going to invalidate the older premise.
                      You're thinking about it with the mindset that Kubo made Ichigo a Quincy as some sort of opportunity for character development or power up. But that's not the case. Ichigo being a Quincy is only a logical consequence of his parents' encounter.

                      This why Ichigo is different from other Shonen protagonists: Bleach is not his story. He is dragged into it and then adapts and takes responsibility for it. That's why he doesn't have the Shonen-expected ambition of becoming the best Captain(Hokage/Pirate King) or whatever.
                      Ichigo's conclusion against Yhwach is a perfect resolution for his theme because ever since chapter 1, Ichigo has been manipulated into a chain of events that he did not desire to take part in.
                      First Aizen planned every one of his encounters; then it was Soul Society that monitored his every move when he had the badge; and finally Yhwach's blood that ran through his veins guided his fate to kill "God"(hence being a Quincy), until The Almighty literally changed futures.

                      In other words, Ichigo is a Quincy because Yhwach is a Quincy. It's just a necessary detail.

                      Comment


                        By the way just in case you feel I'm reaching, this is a poem regarding Ichigo that was released in Volume 23(around the time that Grimmjow went to the Material World for the first time with his Fracciones):

                        "... If fate is a millstone, then we are the grist. There is nothing we can do. So I wish for strength. If I cannot protect them from the wheel, then give me a strong blade, and enough strength... to shatter fate."

                        Tell me you don't picture Yhwach addressing the futures he sees as grains of sand, and the panel of Ichigo dealing the final blow.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                          You're thinking about it with the mindset that Kubo made Ichigo a Quincy as some sort of opportunity for character development or power up. But that's not the case. Ichigo being a Quincy is only a logical consequence of his parents' encounter.

                          This why Ichigo is different from other Shonen protagonists: Bleach is not his story. He is dragged into it and then adapts and takes responsibility for it. That's why he doesn't have the Shonen-expected ambition of becoming the best Captain(Hokage/Pirate King) or whatever.
                          Ichigo's conclusion against Yhwach is a perfect resolution for his theme because ever since chapter 1, Ichigo has been manipulated into a chain of events that he did not desire to take part in.
                          First Aizen planned every one of his encounters; then it was Soul Society that monitored his every move when he had the badge; and finally Yhwach's blood that ran through his veins guided his fate to kill "God"(hence being a Quincy), until The Almighty literally changed futures.

                          In other words, Ichigo is a Quincy because Yhwach is a Quincy. It's just a necessary detail.
                          The other complaint people have with the Blood War arc is that the entire fucking thing didn't need to happen. It's not a necessary detail for Yhwach to even exist, much less for Ichigo to be a Quincy. And in fact, Yhwach literally did not exist for 70% of Bleach's existence.

                          And actually, that poem relating to Ichigo illustrates my point exactly. That was meant to draw parallels to his upcoming fights against the Hollows that he wasn't supposed to have a chance with, and then after that was the confrontation against the architect of every action Ichigo has taken up until that point. Aizen was the millstone that Ichigo shattered. Yhwach was just redundant, because the themes of the manga were fulfilled way back with Aizen.
                          Originally posted by Wade
                          Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                            I think. If you're that late into a series, and you had an idea for a character and then you suddenly change directions with it
                            Kubo Didn't just suddenly get the idea for the last arc, he had ideas for Yhwach and the the Thousand Year Blood war from the Soul Society or during Soul Society, Ichigo was always supposed to be Quincy, It was foreshadowed early on when White told us that he was Zangetsu, after Ichigo asked while looking for the old man and people have been theorising it since the anime showed that Ichigo had a Quincy Cross on his bed since the very first episodes
                            Last edited by Raiden Blackthorn; March 26th, 2020, 01:35 AM.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                              The other complaint people have with the Blood War arc is that the entire fucking thing didn't need to happen. It's not a necessary detail for Yhwach to even exist, much less for Ichigo to be a Quincy. And in fact, Yhwach literally did not exist for 70% of Bleach's existence.

                              And actually, that poem relating to Ichigo illustrates my point exactly. That was meant to draw parallels to his upcoming fights against the Hollows that he wasn't supposed to have a chance with, and then after that was the confrontation against the architect of every action Ichigo has taken up until that point. Aizen was the millstone that Ichigo shattered. Yhwach was just redundant, because the themes of the manga were fulfilled way back with Aizen.
                              No. The poem refers to Ichigo's role as a Shinigami in the entire manga. Ichigo's responsibility as a Soul Reaper all the way to fighting for the Gotei 13 and having to save the world. If the entire final arc didn't exist, many more loose ends would have remained than what we were left with. I just utterly disagree with you there and I don't see how anyone could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Truly horrible writing idea right there.
                              And Ichigo did not "shatter fate" by defeating Aizen because, in the end, Aizen wanted to be matched. It's why he was sealed in the first place.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post
                                Kubo Didn't just suddenly get the idea for the last arc, he had ideas for Yhwach and the the Thousand Year Blood war from the Soul Society or during Soul Society, Ichigo was always supposed to be Quincy, It was foreshadowed early on when White told us that he was Zangetsu, after Ichigo asked while looking for the old man and people have been theorising it since the anime showed that Ichigo had a Quincy Cross on his bed since the very first episodes
                                There's also the suspicious line that Uryu says to one of the Arrancars he defeats, that Aizen should fear the Quincies more than the Shinigami.
                                And Zangetsu stopping Ichigo's bleeding with what we later find out to be Blut in his fight with Kenpachi.
                                And this before the Fullbring arc

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by One of Them View Post
                                  No. The poem refers to Ichigo's role as a Shinigami in the entire manga. Ichigo's responsibility as a Soul Reaper all the way to fighting for the Gotei 13 and having to save the world. If the entire final arc didn't exist, many more loose ends would have remained than what we were left with. I just utterly disagree with you there and I don't see how anyone could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Truly horrible writing idea right there.
                                  And Ichigo did not "shatter fate" by defeating Aizen because, in the end, Aizen wanted to be matched. It's why he was sealed in the first place.
                                  So we have a character that has been manipulating events down to the most minute detail for decades before the series started, and his control over every situation he's involved in lasts all the way up until he ascends into a godlike form. This man's plans specifically involve the main character, and every unlikely trial that has made that character who he is have been planned. He's the master of the embodiment of death, and prior to the Dangai training there was no force in any reality that could realistically challenge him. But fuck, am I retarded for assuming he could be considered 'fate'. I mean, jesus, how could a nigh-omniscient tactician with the world in the palm of his hand be a metaphor for fate? God, it's so fucking braindead.

                                  I forgot about the part where Aizen revealed that it was his plan all along to lose and get taped to a chair for all eternity. He never wanted the Hogyoku after all, he just wanted to have some fun with his friend Ichigo. Him losing wasn't due to Ichigo out-thinking him and training in the one place that Aizen wouldn't have considered or implemented into his plan, it was all predestined! But he's not fate tho, because that would be dumb!
                                  Originally posted by Wade
                                  Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                                  Comment


                                    Kubo may have dispersed a cool dozen wagonloads worth of fetid cow dung throughout the TYBW, but Ichigo's Quincy side isn't part of that mess. His full heritage had a tremendous amount of foreshadowing. Be it through exposition, cover pages, Old Man Zangetsu's very existence, whatever: it was always there. Hell, OMZ (and TZ) even laid the groundwork for Yhwach and them all those chapters ago. Something everyone should've seen coming as soon as Uryuu was described as the "Last Quincy" despite his father, who's still alive, later being revealed to be a very powerful non-practicing Quincy. People like to meme a lot about Kubo's "asspulls," but most everything is planned. Even in the FB arc where most people whine about the relative narrative slack, the Substitute Shinigami badge that Ginjo's hatred and distrust of the SS hinged on was previously referenced as "suspicious" by none other than one Uryuu Ishida. Besides, the whole "shock & awe" of the First Invasion was kinda the whole point. We as the readers felt what the Gotei 13 felt. Where not even Aizen or the Espada racked up a notable body count, this uber efficient death squad rolled out and clapped Captains, VCs, and randoms alike. Der Kaiser even personally murked the CC. These dudes were biding their time underneath the Seretei for a 1000 years to this end. Shit was wild.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                                      So we have a character that has been manipulating events down to the most minute detail for decades before the series started, and his control over every situation he's involved in lasts all the way up until he ascends into a godlike form. This man's plans specifically involve the main character, and every unlikely trial that has made that character who he is have been planned. He's the master of the embodiment of death, and prior to the Dangai training there was no force in any reality that could realistically challenge him. But fuck, am I retarded for assuming he could be considered 'fate'. I mean, jesus, how could a nigh-omniscient tactician with the world in the palm of his hand be a metaphor for fate? God, it's so fucking braindead.
                                      I actually don't know if you're talking about Aizen or Yhwach lol.

                                      Anyway, Aizen does have a hand in the "fate" that manipulates Ichigo, conceptually speaking. It's just that Aizen's defeat does not actually provide the resolution.

                                      I forgot about the part where Aizen revealed that it was his plan all along to lose and get taped to a chair for all eternity. He never wanted the Hogyoku after all, he just wanted to have some fun with his friend Ichigo. Him losing wasn't due to Ichigo out-thinking him and training in the one place that Aizen wouldn't have considered or implemented into his plan, it was all predestined! But he's not fate tho, because that would be dumb!
                                      I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but Aizen did porposely nurture Ichigo's power and he did expect Ichigo to become comparable to him in power. What he did not expect was that Ichigo would surpass him by such a ridiculous margin and he did not expect to lose. Ichigo still reveals that the Hogyoku allowed Aizen to be sealed because Aizen accepted his defeat.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post
                                        Kubo may have dispersed a cool dozen wagonloads worth of fetid cow dung throughout the TYBW, but Ichigo's Quincy side isn't part of that mess. His full heritage had a tremendous amount of foreshadowing. Be it through exposition, cover pages, Old Man Zangetsu's very existence, whatever: it was always there. Hell, OMZ (and TZ) even laid the groundwork for Yhwach and them all those chapters ago. Something everyone should've seen coming as soon as Uryuu was described as the "Last Quincy" despite his father, who's still alive, later being revealed to be a very powerful non-practicing Quincy. People like to meme a lot about Kubo's "asspulls," but most everything is planned. Even in the FB arc where most people whine about the relative narrative slack, the Substitute Shinigami badge that Ginjo's hatred and distrust of the SS hinged on was previously referenced as "suspicious" by none other than one Uryuu Ishida. Besides, the whole "shock & awe" of the First Invasion was kinda the whole point. We as the readers felt what the Gotei 13 felt. Where not even Aizen or the Espada racked up a notable body count, this uber efficient death squad rolled out and clapped Captains, VCs, and randoms alike. Der Kaiser even personally murked the CC. These dudes were biding their time underneath the Seretei for a 1000 years to this end. Shit was wild.
                                        I can only speak for myself but I never questioned if it was an ass pull or not I simply think it was bad story telling. As a writer the goal is to create characters so interesting that you are invested in them based off nothing but their own charisma, you shouldn't constantly need direct connections. Grand Fisher killed his mom, Aizen has been grooming him since birth, Ginjo was also a Substitute Soul Reaper who was given a pass and lied to just like Ichigo, Yhawch really (really) killed his mom and also is his distant ancestor. This is shounen so the whole "chosen one" trope is to be expected but Kubo took it too far.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Raiden Blackthorn View Post

                                          Also Burn the Witch Hype
                                          I'm largely indifferent to the news that BLEACH is getting an anime continuation (while seeing certain fight sequences animated would be nice, it's an entire decade too late), but that's a YIKES from me, dawg. It's whatever as a one-shot albeit decidedly lame as a standalone series.

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