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In your opinion what makes a good MC and a Rival for said MC?

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    #41
    Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
    With all due respect to Helly, I don't agree with the idea that all a protagonist is, is reactionary. Of course, things have to happen that people react to, but that's not all there is to a character.

    Let's take Breaking Bad for example, again. The interesting thing about Walt isn't that he's a chemistry teacher with lung cancer that wants to leave something to his family. That was just what Vince Gillian let us see of him at first.

    The interesting thing about Walt is that he's an intensely prideful, spiteful man that (as he saw it) was thrown away from the life that he earned, that he deserved. If he were truly only looking out for his family, he could've gotten out much sooner than he had, but that wasn't all that there was to him. He was trying to build himself a legacy that would overshadow GreyMatter Industries, because he was sick of being on the short end of the stick. Then there's his view on death, which is disjointed and twisted as his cognitive dissonance made it. Family is all-important, Jesse is all-important, but literally anyone else is expendable- including himself, after a certain point. This is the viewpoint of a man that wouldn't allow himself to be the bad guy, so he had to justify all the corpses that lay at his feet. If it weren't for the wrinkles to his character that made Walt such a unique individual, the show would not have been the 10/10 experience that it is.

    I would say that any good MC should be nuanced. They should have a personality that compliments the challenges they face, but they should be their own character. To make a purely reactionary character is to make a bland, limp MC that people forget about.
    I partially agree that my initial analysis of Walter was not quite on point - it is true that he had a few more details revealed about him, but those were much later on in the series and seem more a sign that Walt's evolution made the writers realize that there was still much more they should be doing. They needed to test him more, and so they assigned more things they could test him on.

    Nuances are necessary, sure, though to me that's just another way of saying "give them the capacity to fail". Walt's pride, Walt's dubious moral character, Walt's loyalty to Jesse and the protection of his family even at the cost of his own humanity, etc, these are all things that served to challenge him and tear him down. They were vulnerabilities that the writers were constantly turning against him in all manners of combinations which is what gave his personality such a dynamic feel - even though, on paper, he wasn't much more than an overqualified chemistry teacher.

    It has become a pet theory of mine (over the last 18 hours or so) that most characters are potentially equal...what they lack are the deeply complex trials that Walter was confronted with. Kajin mentioned Goku earlier, and as a character the guy isn't much besides nostalgia trips. One tiny moment that had always stood out to me, though, was the conflict between Goku, Majin Vegeta, and the Supreme Kai. There was a brief moment where Goku threatens the Supreme Kai, a character who was much weaker than him and had been nothing other than a saint, for standing in the way of his fight with Vegeta. In that instant we saw Goku, the picture of innocence and hope in the DBZ universe, in a much more menacing light. Thinking about it again right now, I am quite saddened that Toriyama didn't opt to include more moments like that in DBZ. That was a rare moment where we saw two of the good guys have a conflict in goals, there was an actual tension there just for that brief moment...and it happened with the two biggest Gary Stu's in all of anime, one of which was a completely forgettable character.

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      #42
      Originally posted by Helly View Post
      It has become a pet theory of mine (over the last 18 hours or so) that most characters are potentially equal...what they lack are the deeply complex trials that Walter was confronted with.
      I respectfully disagree that every character has the potential to be equal on this basis. A character's associations with and responses to even the most mundane situations serve to establish who they are, what their relevant outlook is, and how they choose to conduct themselves in a given state of affairs. In this respect, characterization is contingent on everything a character says and does -- and how they think, where applicable -- which in turn scales according to how well-written that character and the work in general is.

      If anything, one's talent in their medium (writing, music, or another forms of art) matters least when facing complex trials, since it is in these situations that fleshing out a character is easiest. The talent primarily lies in determining said trials in a way that is pertinent and makes sense, with the characters and with the story in that order.

      Walter White was a well-written and dynamic character due to how the trials themselves were provided, and more importantly due to how he responded to seemingly minor situations.

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by P408370R View Post
        I respectfully disagree that every character has the potential to be equal on this basis. A character's associations with and responses to even the most mundane situations serve to establish who they are, what their relevant outlook is, and how they choose to conduct themselves in a given state of affairs. In this respect, characterization is contingent on everything a character says and does -- and how they think, where applicable -- which in turn scales according to how well-written that character and the work in general is.

        If anything, one's talent in their medium (writing, music, or another forms of art) matters least when facing complex trials, since it is in these situations that fleshing out a character is easiest. The talent primarily lies in determining said trials in a way that is pertinent and makes sense, with the characters and with the story in that order.

        Walter White was a well-written and dynamic character due to how the trials themselves were provided, and more importantly due to how he responded to seemingly minor situations.
        Putting forth the right types of trials at the right time is important, sure. My apologies if my suggestions came across as to just dump the characters in as many terrible situations as you can think of.

        I should clarify on what I mean by 'equal'. By 'equal', I mean equal in entertainment value, not as in exactly the same in terms of depth and complexity. Going back to my selected DBZ moment, that was the only real time I can recall in all of DBZ where Goku as a character became even marginally interesting. We got to see, very briefly, what happens when you put Toriyama's Gary Stu in a difficult situation involving a supreme being's life vs the lives of millions, as well as Goku's own building rage over Vegeta's earlier mass homicide. It was a moment in DBZ that didn't involve any fighting at all, yet managed to stand out because of the interesting situation that was briefly given to us...and Goku still remained the same character before and after it happened.

        Comment


        • P408370R
          P408370R commented
          Editing a comment
          It is I who must apologize for misinterpreting your meaning, fren; sorry.

          I agree with your point on the clarification!

        #44
        >Goku, the picture of innocence and hope in the DBZ universe
        boy, I wish Doc were here to poke fun at that shit.
        Saccharine Trust - Our Discovery

        Comment


          #45
          Originally posted by Helly View Post

          nardo is a peace of shit, max, nardo is a steaming moist turd that was shat all over the very purpose of the character itself. how KiSHITmoto lost the point so hard is astonishing...hard-working ninja turned prophecy child, what an absolute travesty smfh
          Pulling up to your house right now...

          Comment


            #46
            Originally posted by Helly View Post

            nardo is a peace of shit, max, nardo is a steaming moist turd that was shat all over the very purpose of the character itself. how KiSHITmoto lost the point so hard is astonishing...hard-working ninja turned prophecy child, what an absolute travesty smfh
            "So this character is an underdog, who through shear will power, determination, stubborn-hotheadedness, and inventive creativeness, will rise to the top and become Hokage...possibly, you'll have to wait a bit in the mean time..."
            *2 hours later.*
            "Fuck it, he was destined to become hokage all along. All that struggle he had was pointless. Neji was right. Have a good day!"

            There are one of two things going on here:

            1. Kishimoto is secretly a genius and we simply cannot understand the enormous complexity around his decision making.
            2. Kishimoto was smoking tons of dope for the second part of Naruto.

            And I can't bring myself to go with option number 1...
            Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; January 5th, 2019, 03:24 PM.

            Comment


              #47
              Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

              "So this character is an underdog, who through shear will power, determination, stubborn-hotheadedness, and inventive creativeness, will rise to the top and become Hokage...possibly, you'll have to wait a bit in the mean time..."
              *2 hours later.*
              "Fuck it, he was destined to become hokage all along. All that struggle he had was pointless. Neji was right. Have a good day!"

              There are one of two things going on here:

              1. Kishimoto is secretly a genius and we simply cannot understand the enormous complexity around his decision making.
              2. Kishimoto was smoking tons of dope for the second part of Naruto.

              And I can't bring myself to go with option number 1...
              Kishimoto is just a GoAT tbh

              Comment


                #48
                Originally posted by Helly View Post
                A good MC...

                ....

                I've never really thought about it, to be honest. If I had to make a definite statement, I'd say protagonists as stand-alone templates are largely secondary to me. I don't really care whether I can relate to them or not, what their ethics are, mannerisms, etc. None of that really becomes important to me unless I'm creating an antagonist.

                A protag is a protag. They're meant to be thrust into difficult situations, be totally destroyed and brutalized, and re-emerge either better or worse off than before. The only interesting thing about them, to me, is watching them react to their tests and seeing where they come out. That's what makes a good story good, in my opinion: the 'story' element itself, or perhaps it can be more easily understood as the environment.

                One example that immediately comes to mind is Walter White. Purely on paper, his character does not stand out to me at all, and I also cannot relate to it at all. I mean, a chemistry teacher with lung cancer who wants to leave something for his family? Zzzzz. Breaking Bad did well to keep the cast on their toes, and kept putting Walter into extremely difficult situations where every aspect of his character was challenged. Sometimes he did the right thing, sometimes he didn't. I won't spoil too many details in case you haven't watched the series, but suffice it to say that Walter's memorable role in the series was largely down to the precarious challenges that he faced.

                "just write a good story, dumb ass", sounds like extremely unhelpful advice, though...The important thing you need to take away is that, when you're writing a character, you HAVE to include within them the inherent capacity to lose. Don't be like fucking Kishimoto with a god-invincible MC running around rehabilitating villains in 4 minutes, or mass resurrecting a bunch of secondary characters just because lolIfeelbad. Have them fail, and fail SPECTACULARLY.

                You want a good MC, come up with a good setting and series of trials, the rest will write itself - OH, and focus more on making good ANTAGONISTS.
                I am so fucking triggered by this post. One who the fuck reads a shounen expecting the protagonist to take some L’s along the way. That never fucking happens in any shounen. Legit the so called hardships never even matter because you already know they will power through that shit somehow. Two I am tired of you motherfuckers talking about tnj. Newsflash all these shounen niggas singing kumbaya with a nigga who tried to kill them not just Naruto. That has been a shounen trope since the shit first started. Luffy one arc away from having Doflamingo join his crew. Ichigo got hollow niggas popping up out of nowhere in the final arc like they been fucking with eachother. Shounens are legit the same story with different characters with personalities either crackhead happy, or emo. Same two fucking flavors. I am about to be like Max. Post your address nigga.
                Last edited by 40 acres; January 5th, 2019, 03:46 PM.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5Frq4gbHY

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                  #49
                  The absolute best metric is conflicting ideologies.

                  Akira and Satan

                  Light and L

                  Mugen and Jin

                  Goku and Frieza (At least durign Namek. Though tbh, it's more like two sides of the same coin. Frieza wanted to fight Goku in order to prove he was the strongest. Goku wanted to fight him because he was.)

                  Yusuke and Toguro

                  etc.



                  Comment


                    #50
                    Originally posted by 40 acres View Post

                    I am so fucking triggered by this post. One who the fuck reads a shounen expecting the protagonist to take some L’s along the way. That never fucking happens in any shounen. Legit the so called hardships never even matter because you already know they will power through that shit somehow. Two I am tired of you motherfuckers talking about tnj. Newsflash all these shounen niggas singing kumbaya with a nigga who tried to kill them not just Naruto. That has been a shounen trope since the shit first started. Luffy one arc away from having Doflamingo join his crew. Ichigo got hollow niggas popping up out of nowhere in the final arc like they been fucking with eachother. Shounens are legit the same story with different characters with personalities either crackhead happy, or emo. Same two fucking flavors. I am about to be like Max. Post your address nigga.
                    lol alright dude... time you put the manga comics down and walk away. You damn well know half of the shit you spewed out is utter nonsense.

                    Originally posted by Date Rape Prophet
                    I don't believe in infallibility of scripture

                    Comment


                    • 40 acres
                      40 acres commented
                      Editing a comment
                      sit down one piece stan

                    #51
                    Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                    With all due respect to Helly, I don't agree with the idea that all a protagonist is, is reactionary. Of course, things have to happen that people react to, but that's not all there is to a character.

                    Let's take Breaking Bad for example, again. The interesting thing about Walt isn't that he's a chemistry teacher with lung cancer that wants to leave something to his family. That was just what Vince Gillian let us see of him at first.

                    The interesting thing about Walt is that he's an intensely prideful, spiteful man that (as he saw it) was thrown away from the life that he earned, that he deserved. If he were truly only looking out for his family, he could've gotten out much sooner than he had, but that wasn't all that there was to him. He was trying to build himself a legacy that would overshadow GreyMatter Industries, because he was sick of being on the short end of the stick. Then there's his view on death, which is disjointed and twisted as his cognitive dissonance made it. Family is all-important, Jesse is all-important, but literally anyone else is expendable- including himself, after a certain point. This is the viewpoint of a man that wouldn't allow himself to be the bad guy, so he had to justify all the corpses that lay at his feet. If it weren't for the wrinkles to his character that made Walt such a unique individual, the show would not have been the 10/10 experience that it is.

                    I would say that any good MC should be nuanced. They should have a personality that compliments the challenges they face, but they should be their own character. To make a purely reactionary character is to make a bland, limp MC that people forget about.
                    Naw... fuck that. The MC just need to be interesting.

                    Just look at RE: Zero. That MC is waaaaay over his head in the challenges he deals with and well what happens to him and he he finally overcomes it is just so damn good. Also very hilarious at times.

                    Originally posted by Date Rape Prophet
                    I don't believe in infallibility of scripture

                    Comment


                      #52
                      Originally posted by Salvador Kali View Post
                      >Goku, the picture of innocence and hope in the DBZ universe
                      boy, I wish Doc were here to poke fun at that shit.
                      dude, 28 people read Dragonball, no one cares about the red ribbon arc lol


                      Originally posted by Max View Post

                      Pulling up to your house right now...
                      my 'house', eh. chuckles. gl getting past my genjutsu, kids


                      Originally posted by 40 acres View Post

                      I am so fucking triggered by this post. One who the fuck reads a shounen expecting the protagonist to take some L’s along the way. That never fucking happens in any shounen. Legit the so called hardships never even matter because you already know they will power through that shit somehow. Two I am tired of you motherfuckers talking about tnj. Newsflash all these shounen niggas singing kumbaya with a nigga who tried to kill them not just Naruto. That has been a shounen trope since the shit first started. Luffy one arc away from having Doflamingo join his crew. Ichigo got hollow niggas popping up out of nowhere in the final arc like they been fucking with eachother. Shounens are legit the same story with different characters with personalities either crackhead happy, or emo. Same two fucking flavors. I am about to be like Max. Post your address nigga.
                      Hey hey whoa slow down there broseph. I'm not trying to say that these things don't happen outside of Naruto, or that they aren't tiresome and commonplace throughout alot of shounen(though I was just talking about shows that describe a struggle between a character and an obstacle in general). I'm just pointing out a few flaws that I'm especially not fond of when they manifest in main characters, and Naruto simply happens to be a recent example that alot of people who are into anime are familiar with. As for 'none of the hardships really matter'...that's only true from a purely mechanistic standpoint. A story needs a character to suffer through its arcs and bring about a resolution, so there will always be some degree of plot armor to ensure that the story reaches an ending other than "and then they all died" - especially if the story centers around one main character who largely keeps the center stage for himself. That doesn't make the whole thing worthless fat-out, though...if it did, no one would ever bother watching any television show of any genre, ever. No, the point of a story is not simply to reach its end...the point is (hopefully) to gleam something of some worth (even if it's just to be entertained) from its progression and the manner in which everything is resolved. Shounen typically won't be of much use in that department unless your threshold for an enjoyable series is watching big explosions get progressively bigger, I agree, but that doesn't make everything worthless, or that you can't create something that's a bit more unorthodox.
                      Last edited by Helly; January 5th, 2019, 06:49 PM.

                      Comment


                        #53
                        Originally posted by 40 acres View Post

                        I am so fucking triggered by this post. One who the fuck reads a shounen expecting the protagonist to take some L’s along the way. That never fucking happens in any shounen. Legit the so called hardships never even matter because you already know they will power through that shit somehow. Two I am tired of you motherfuckers talking about tnj. Newsflash all these shounen niggas singing kumbaya with a nigga who tried to kill them not just Naruto. That has been a shounen trope since the shit first started. Luffy one arc away from having Doflamingo join his crew. Ichigo got hollow niggas popping up out of nowhere in the final arc like they been fucking with eachother. Shounens are legit the same story with different characters with personalities either crackhead happy, or emo. Same two fucking flavors. I am about to be like Max. Post your address nigga.
                        Fam stop, even you know that Naruto is an extreme example. There were at least 5 techniques in the series to revive the dead, at one point a character just decided to leave the afterlife.

                        Comment


                          #54
                          Originally posted by Kajin_Style View Post

                          Naw... fuck that. The MC just need to be interesting.

                          Just look at RE: Zero. That MC is waaaaay over his head in the challenges he deals with and well what happens to him and he he finally overcomes it is just so damn good. Also very hilarious at times.
                          I'm arguing that being interesting is a natural byproduct of having nuance to a character. If it's a paper cut-out surviving all these ridiculous hardships, then it's not the MC that's interesting, it's the story around him.

                          Take Luffy, for example. He's definitely an interesting character... But he's also a shit-tier MC that drags down One Piece's quality because the story has to be filtered through his perspective.

                          Comment


                            #55
                            Originally posted by Helly View Post




                            Hey hey whoa slow down there broseph. I'm not trying to say that these things don't happen outside of Naruto, or that they aren't tiresome and commonplace throughout alot of shounen(though I was just talking about shows that describe a struggle between a character and an obstacle in general). I'm just pointing out a few flaws that I'm especially not fond of when they manifest in main characters, and Naruto simply happens to be a recent example that alot of people who are into anime are familiar with. As for 'none of the hardships really matter'...that's only true from a purely mechanistic standpoint. A story needs a character to suffer through its arcs and bring about a resolution, so there will always be some degree of plot armor to ensure that the story reaches an ending other than "and then they all died" - especially if the story centers around one main character who largely keeps the center stage for himself. That doesn't make the whole thing worthless fat-out, though...if it did, no one would ever bother watching any television show of any genre, ever. No, the point of a story is not simply to reach its end...the point is (hopefully) to gleam something of some worth (even if it's just to be entertained) from its progression and the manner in which everything is resolved. Shounen typically won't be of much use in that department unless your threshold for an enjoyable series is watching big explosions get progressively bigger, I agree, but that doesn't make everything worthless, or that you can't create something that's a bit more unorthodox.
                            I feel people don't even realize the point of a shounen. It is equal to a Saturday morning cartoon. Classic good guy vs bad gut shit. The simplicity is the draw. People tend to want to make them more than what they are. But to be quite blunt they are just stans. Zealots/fanatics to something they like which is something everyone here is guilty of. Anyways back on point you were comparing a layered show not even in the same category to pretty much mindless entertainment.
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5Frq4gbHY

                            Comment


                              #56
                              Originally posted by EnemyOfDaState View Post

                              Fam stop, even you know that Naruto is an extreme example. There were at least 5 techniques in the series to revive the dead, at one point a character just decided to leave the afterlife.
                              Come on bro half the niggas in these shows should be handicapped for life. Bleach and one piece were just as guilty as Naruto. They all give the illusion of death with very few characters actually dying. Ichigo never even had one tragic close to home death except his mother. Even with the revival technique the orange ninja blood relatives and parent Jiraiya all remained dead. Even with the deux Machina revival techniques Naruto still experienced the most permanent deaths.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5Frq4gbHY

                              Comment


                                #57
                                Originally posted by 40 acres View Post

                                I feel people don't even realize the point of a shounen. It is equal to a Saturday morning cartoon. Classic good guy vs bad gut shit. The simplicity is the draw. People tend to want to make them more than what they are. But to be quite blunt they are just stans. Zealots/fanatics to something they like which is something everyone here is guilty of. Anyways back on point you were comparing a layered show not even in the same category to pretty much mindless entertainment.
                                DBZ is the only anime mentioned in this thread that I can be pretty confident is just striving for "mindless" entertainment. With all of the other ones, including the HST, the auhtors all strove for more than that.

                                Comment


                                  #58
                                  Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                                  DBZ is the only anime mentioned in this thread that I can be pretty confident is just striving for "mindless" entertainment. With all of the other ones, including the HST, the auhtors all strove for more than that.
                                  I put it all on the level of Saturday morning cartoons batman the animated, xmen, spiderman, and static for examples. Great as those shows were there was still a cap to the level of depth they were going to go on a kids show.That is still where hst lands no matter how you look at it. The mc will always overcome the bad guy. I for one never think that the mc is going to get snuffed you just wonder how will they do it. Most shounen that tip the line are not even really shounen anymore and barely maintain that title. Typically with an happy ending.
                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5Frq4gbHY

                                  Comment


                                    #59
                                    Originally posted by 40 acres View Post

                                    Come on bro half the niggas in these shows should be handicapped for life. Bleach and one piece were just as guilty as Naruto. They all give the illusion of death with very few characters actually dying. Ichigo never even had one tragic close to home death except his mother. Even with the revival technique the orange ninja blood relatives and parent Jiraiya all remained dead. Even with the deux Machina revival techniques Naruto still experienced the most permanent deaths.
                                    I'm fine with this though. The issue I have with Naruto is the same issue I had with DBZ, you can't try to invoke emotions with deaths when you are later going to ignore all the consequences of those deaths. Kishi just wanted the appearance of being deeper then a battle shonen.

                                    Comment


                                      #60
                                      I'd say best rival pairing was Kyouko vs Sayaka.

                                      It ended in smex/Yuri.

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