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Disproving Subjective Truth and Subjective Morality via the Copernican Principle and Relativity

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    #41
    Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

    I was so pissed off, man.

    A lot of people told me that genociding people is wrong.

    I thought I was doomed to just be...you know...the neighborhood asshole.

    But then I killed all those people off and I was just left with a bunch of guys that think genocide’s cool.

    So now I’m morally right and I can sleep at night...
    Hitler probably slept well at night

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      #42
      Originally posted by Cid View Post

      Nope. I don't think human sacrifice is permissible at all. Because I was raised in a culture that taught me that it was wrong and unnecessary.

      However, some ancient civilizations did believe it was permissible. And in their culture, it was.
      And the Jews thought they had a commandment from the Creator to execute anybody who practiced human sacrifice. They were Objectively Moral for killing the Baal worshipers.

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        #43
        Originally posted by Wade View Post
        killing
        Objectively Moral
        Nice.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by Wade View Post

          And the Jews thought they had a commandment from the Creator to execute anybody who practiced human sacrifice. They were Objectively Moral for killing the Baal worshipers.
          And here comes space daddy to conveniently let Wade do whatever he wants. Space daddy might also conveniently change his position every 3 seconds with Wade following in tow.

          Just as nonsensical and flimsy as the “If everyone (or ‘enough people’) believes that it’s morally correct, it becomes morally correct” position, lol.
          Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 26th, 2019, 09:27 AM.

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            #45
            Originally posted by Wade View Post

            And the Jews thought they had a commandment from the Creator to execute anybody who practiced human sacrifice. They were Objectively Moral for killing the Baal worshipers.
            According to... Their God, their culture, or your personal opinion?

            turns out the Baal worshippers have gods, cultures, and opinions that disagree, so...
            Last edited by OrganizationXV; November 26th, 2019, 09:33 AM.
            Originally posted by Wade
            Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by Wade View Post

              And the Jews thought they had a commandment from the Creator to execute anybody who practiced human sacrifice. They were Objectively Moral for killing the Baal worshipers.
              Again, there's no such thing as "objective morality." So they were subjectively moral in accordance to their own culture. Of course, in the modern era, we look back at the Baal worshipers and the ancient Jews and we view them as subjectively immoral.

              As I said in the initial post, morality in and of itself is subjective. It's a social construct that we created in order to form a society and cast out those who we disagree with.

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by Wade View Post

                We do know what Truth is. All science and mathematics is based on definition of Truth. The Universe obeys Boolean Logic. Also, String Theory has basically unified Quantum Theory and Relativity.
                I wish that to be true but we do not know the truth.
                they are based on one specific definition of truth (or more than one ) there are many more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
                The universe does not obey boolean logic, especially at its core, for eaxample photons can be shown to have ability to "be in two places at the same time" this already requires 3 valued logic and in reality its more like fuzzy logic which are different from classical (or correspondence) model of truth you are using
                string theory is far from being dominating model as it needs more testing so its a candidate at best and we dont know if we wont stumble uppon anothe rift like the one that gave a rise to quantum mechanics at the beginning of XX century
                My laughter when I see stupid posts:

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                  #48
                  Originally posted by PrezesE View Post
                  I wish that to be true but we do not know the truth.
                  they are based on one specific definition of truth (or more than one ) there are many more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
                  The universe does not obey boolean logic, especially at its core, for eaxample photons can be shown to have ability to "be in two places at the same time" this already requires 3 valued logic and in reality its more like fuzzy logic which are different from classical (or correspondence) model of truth you are using
                  string theory is far from being dominating model as it needs more testing so its a candidate at best and we dont know if we wont stumble uppon anothe rift like the one that gave a rise to quantum mechanics at the beginning of XX century
                  No, the Universe does obey Boolean Logic. Everything in Physics can be modeled on a Classical Computer, which obeys Boolean Logic. This includes Quantum Algorithms, the problem is it just takes eternity to actually run a Quantum Algorithm on a Classical Computer, so it's not practical. But you are quite wrong.

                  The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does not forbid "Absolute Truth" at the Quantum level. It just states that you can't reliably measure the absolute truth. But the Photon or Electron has an absolute position and velocity at any given instant, and that position is the Truth, whether or not you can measure it

                  We definitely know what Truth is. Computers wouldn't even work if we didn't have an absolute definition of Truth.

                  Wikipedia is not a reliable source on the definition of "Truth". Wikipedia is written mostly by liberals who already have a Subjective Truth bias, and so they lie about the definition of Truth.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by Cid View Post

                    Again, there's no such thing as "objective morality." So they were subjectively moral in accordance to their own culture. Of course, in the modern era, we look back at the Baal worshipers and the ancient Jews and we view them as subjectively immoral.

                    As I said in the initial post, morality in and of itself is subjective. It's a social construct that we created in order to form a society and cast out those who we disagree with.
                    Objective Truthfulness is an Objectively Moral concept, and the Universe itself is Objectively Truthful. Therefore the Universe is Objectively Moral. And whether you believe the Copernican Principle directly supports Objective Morality or not, it definitely supports Objective Truth. Again, without Objective Truth, all Science and Reason would be illusory.

                    So I believe I have proven Objective Truth exists, and since Objective Truth is an Objectively Moral concept, I believe I have proven Objective Morality exists.

                    I think you are being ridiculous for implying that human sacrifice could be justifiable in any context. Do you see how low you must stoop to try to defend Subjective Morality?

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by Wade View Post
                      I think you are being ridiculous for implying that human sacrifice could be justifiable in any context. Do you see how low you must stoop to try to defend Subjective Morality?
                      Well, it doesn't matter what you personally think because you're objectively a moron.

                      I didn't defend or justify human sacrifice. I said that ancient cultures did. And that is a fact. Therefore objective morality is demonstrably false. If morals can change then it means there's nothing objective about them. It's that simple. And any reasoning to the contrary is, simply put, wrong.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by Wade View Post

                        Objective Truthfulness is an Objectively Moral concept, and the Universe itself is Objectively Truthful. Therefore the Universe is Objectively Moral. And whether you believe the Copernican Principle directly supports Objective Morality or not, it definitely supports Objective Truth. Again, without Objective Truth, all Science and Reason would be illusory.

                        So I believe I have proven Objective Truth exists, and since Objective Truth is an Objectively Moral concept, I believe I have proven Objective Morality exists.

                        I think you are being ridiculous for implying that human sacrifice could be justifiable in any context. Do you see how low you must stoop to try to defend Subjective Morality?

                        Goddamnit, dude......Wade.....No. This is all completely wrong. The Copernican Principle supports no such thing, it is specific to cosmology and planet earth itself. All it states is that we do not occupy a privileged place in the universe, but even if it weren't true there are still alternate models that account for issues without the need for dark energy. Lambda CDM is certainly the most successful model for now but there is so much more it can't really tell us about, and if it came out tomorrow that we are actually in a privileged position, what then? There is still some form of truth we could approximate, right? We don't need the Copernican principle to be 'proven' in order to make observations of the cosmos. And once again I reiterate that none of this crap has anything to do with morality.


                        For what reason do you believe human sacrifice to be 'wrong'?

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by Helly View Post
                          For what reason do you believe human sacrifice to be 'wrong'?
                          Let me guess, you're also in the "it's all subjective" camp?

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                            Let me guess, you're also in the "it's all subjective" camp?
                            In what way would it be objective?
                            Originally posted by Wade
                            Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                              In what way would it be objective?
                              Since there is a common baseline that underlines our attitudes seemingly at any given point (someone trying to kill me = bad seems oddly universal), it seems like there's some sort of objective morality in the context of the human experience specifically, even if we have not quite pinpointed it and still have grey areas to deal with.

                              So, I'd like to ask you something...

                              You believe morality is entirely subjective and completely up to our whims.

                              Alright. Let us say that we have only 1,000 people on the planet. It will make the math easier. Here are six cases:
                              1. Half of these people want to kill a person from the other half of the people on the planet. And the other half thinks that that is some dipshit noise and wants to be left alone. Are the people trying to kill another person on the other side "morally right"? Why or why not?

                              2. Just like the last case, but it's 501 people in the "kill a guy on the other side" camp, and 499 in the other.

                              3. 750 to 250 people this time.

                              4. 900/100.

                              5. 998/2.

                              6. 999/1.

                              In which of these cases are the "kill a guy" people correct? If the morality of the kill a guy group changes, in any of these cases...why?
                              Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 27th, 2019, 03:52 PM.

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by Helly View Post
                                For what reason do you believe human sacrifice to be 'wrong'?
                                I wonder who could be behind this post


                                Originally posted by Kajin_Style
                                I have this illness called "Having-a-Heart" and gives me this irrational sense of empathy and care for my fellow man.

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                                  Let me guess, you're also in the "it's all subjective" camp?
                                  Most smart people are, dude. That's not to say that all the people in that camp think that human sacrifice and mass genocide is "okay" by their own standards as long as the people are doing it are in the majority. Not sure what got you heated enough to immediately go there, but whatever.
                                  Last edited by Max; November 27th, 2019, 03:56 PM.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Max View Post

                                    Most smart people are, dude.
                                    Yes, the "woke" people who tell us that morality is subjective...also start crying on election day when a Twitter shitposter gets in, as if some moral calamity has occurred because half the country voted for him (but if it's up to public opinion, why is your crying really worth a damn given the 50/50 split?)

                                    And if Helly here believes it's subjective, then he's gotta fess up to his veganism and crying over the "animal holocaust" going on and how it's suddenly an exception to the "public opinion" perspective of things. It's clear he's in the minority there.

                                    If they want to believe "it's all subjective, bruh" fine. But at least be willing to:

                                    1. Confront the implications of it.
                                    And
                                    2. Be willing to act accordingly.

                                    ...They don't for either of them, which is why I find them funny and hypocritical, outside of why I find the "it's completely subjective" position rather flimsy and not all too different from majoritarianism.

                                    At least Wade was willing to say the ugly words that come as a result of his ridiculously rigid moral system, which is more than I can say for the subjectivists in this thread...
                                    Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 27th, 2019, 04:08 PM.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                                      Yes, the "woke" people who tell us that morality is subjective...also start crying on election day when a Twitter shitposter gets in, as if some moral calamity has occurred because half the country voted for him (but if it's up to public opinion, why is your crying really worth a damn given the 50/50 split?)
                                      lmao

                                      And if Helly here believes it's subjective, then he's gotta fess up to his veganism and crying over the "animal holocaust" going on and how it's suddenly an exception to the "public opinion" perspective of things.
                                      Yeah Helly's moralfagging is pretty gay I agree there.

                                      If they want to believe it's subjective, fine. But at least be willing to:

                                      1. Confront the implications of it.
                                      And
                                      2. Be willing to act accordingly.

                                      ...They don't for either of them, which is why I find them funny.

                                      At least Wade was willing to say the ugly words that come as a result of his moral system, which is more than I can say for the subjectivists in this thread...
                                      I'm sure most of these people just believe that ideas such as "good" and "evil" aren't universal constants, and are instead just human constructs that can't be "proved" by using 8th grade Boolean logic. These "subjectivists" do have their own morals (Helly for example) but they recognize that these morals are just a result of the values instilled in them as a child or later on in life. I'm sure that most people here aren't morally inclined to start going on murdering sprees as soon as society breaks down or their "god" is proved to be not real or some other shit just because they think that morals are subjective, which they are.
                                      Last edited by Max; November 27th, 2019, 04:13 PM.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post
                                        Since there is a common baseline that underlines our attitudes seemingly at any given point (someone trying to kill me = bad seems oddly universal)
                                        People fear death. So obviously, when it's their life on the line it becomes entirely different. But ritualistic sacrifice did take families apart... And guess what? Within their culture, it was still ok. There were fathers and mothers who would consider it an honor for their child to be chosen. It's actually such a profoundly prevalent thought throughout history that we currently use that story in modern media.

                                        Also, you're looking at it from a viewpoint created by your own morals and shaped by your own culture. If you grew up with the ancient Aztecs, you would probably be ok with ritualistic sacrifice. So just how are morals not subjective? How does something that changes and evolves with a culture objective? It doesn't make any logical sense, that's for sure.

                                        How about this, let's change the subject matter from something so poignant as sacrifice.

                                        Is gay marriage moral or immoral?
                                        Last edited by Cid; November 27th, 2019, 04:26 PM.

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by Cid View Post

                                          Is gay marriage ... immoral?
                                          No.

                                          Next.
                                          Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 27th, 2019, 04:36 PM.

                                          Comment


                                          • OrganizationXV
                                            OrganizationXV commented
                                            Editing a comment
                                            But what makes it moral or immoral?
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