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    The Set Theory Argument for God's Existence.

    This is a deep subject about the true nature of the True Creator God, which I was arguing for on another forum for the past several hours. Here is a copy and past of my argument, which I call the "Set Theory argument for God's existence".

    ====

    Okay, so the set Nothing{P} cannot exist, because Nothing{} is an empty set.

    The past-finite universe (big bang model) could not come from Nothing{}, because Nothing{} does not contain any members, therefore there is not a creative process, P, in the set Nothing{}, in fact, no matter how many layers of reality exist, there can't have been a set "Nothing{P}", because Nothing{} is always a reference to an empty set.

    Thus the past- finite universe must have been created by something which somehow preceded said past finite universe and is not nothing.

    The only thing which meets this description is Logos{P, ...}.

    Chaos cannot meet this description, because Chaos turns out to be a unique member of the set "Logos{P, ...}", and not the other way around.

    In Hawkings equation, "1 + (-1) = 0," therefore, he claims, postive energy and negative energy cancel so everything can come from nothing. No it can't. Matter does not have "negative mass" just because it is moving in the opposite direction. Even if it did, guess what? He cant' escape this...

    Wait a minute, the equation "1+(-1) = 0" happens to be a sub-set of "Logos{P,...}", so even if Hawking's equation worked, which it does not work, but even if it did work, it would require an eternal creator to exist....Logos{P, ...}

    If I have five apples and you take away 5 apples, I don't have zero apples, I have nothing at all, because zero apples is not a counting number. In fact, the entire negative number system is a misnomer. There can be a negative sign denoting a vector's direction, but there are not negative counting numbers, just as zero apples is not a counting number. There is a hole in every graph at zero, which is not taught properly in mathematics courses. Negative numbers do not exist in reality. The negative sign denotes a vector direction, nothing more. There is no "negative mass" in the Universe, even Anti-Matter does not have "negative mass". So Hawking was dead wrong when he made up this silly argument.

    Hawking's equation is a sub-set of Logos{P,...}, therefore Logos{P,...} must exist, but Chaos{P} cannot exist, but Logos{Chaos{}, P, ...} need not exist either, because we don't see true chaos in the universe, however, just in case I am wrong and chaos does exist, chaos turns out to be a sub-set of Logos{P, ...}.

    So "Logos" explains everything, while "Nothing" explains nothing, and "Chaos" explains nothing.

    I had a hard time proving that Chaos was a subset of Logos, but it turns out to be as simple as this:

    Every sentence which makes sense is a subset of Logos.
    Actually, every sentence is a subset of Logos even if it does not make sense.
    Therefore Chaos is a subset of Logos.
    Therefore Logos{P,...} precedes Chaos{}, because Logos can describe Chaos, but Chaos is not guaranteed to describe Logos{P,...}, and meanwhile the set "Nothing{}" has never existed in reality, else Nothing{} would continue to exist..."From Nothing comes nothing."


    Wade • an hour ago
    Now String Theory turns out to be a sub-set of Logos, and not the other way around. Else how do they "know" there is any sense in String Theory? It is a mere extension of the logic they observe in this universe, so they extend it to roughly 10^500 additional universes.

    And let us not confuse the term "Logos{P,...}" with our logic alone. I'm using the term "Logos" as the Greeks defined Logos, or the word translated "Word" in John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God"). I.E. "The Rational Principal which governs reality".

    But I believe I have shown that if you admit that Nothing{P} certain can't exist, and Nothing{} appears never to have been the case, then the Creator must be the set "Logos{P, ...}".

    Then the only question that remains is, "Is the Creator a mind or is the creator a mindless event-like entity?"

    The Creator, Logos{P,...} must have had the mind-potential, else we would not have minds.
    Therefore the Creator must be a mind, because it has mind-potential, and this Creator has had an eternity to reach its potential, so if it has mind potential which created our minds, then the mind potential should have created its own mind in that eternal existence by now...
    Therefore the Creator is both a mind and almighty; Logos{P,...} governs all conceivable realities.
    Therefore Logos{P, ...} is the greatest conceivable Being in every conceivable world. ("The Heaven and The Heaven of Heavens cannot contain Thee"). Which is Transcendence; But the Logos{P,...} observed in String Theory is assumed to be Transcendent, which is why they use the same laws as the universe we observe to try to describe all conceivable universes, and to try to explain Gravity better.
    Therefore Logos{P, ...} is the same as God, the same God the Biblical authors, flawed as they be, tried to inform you of.
    Therefore John 1:1 is correct. In the Beginning was the Logos and the Logos was God.
    Last edited by Wade; February 11th, 2019, 10:05 AM.

    #2
    I, too, enjoy basing my beliefs of unanswerable questions on beginner's coding logic.

    Comment


      #3
      TLDR/Short version:

      Mind Potential must always have existed within reality, otherwise we would not have minds. Pretty obvious.

      Now if Mind Potential has been a part of reality for eternity past, then that Mind Potential ought to have evolved into an actual mind in eternity past by now, especially if there are 10^500 universes as in String Theory, the Mind Potential had at least 10^500 entire universe histories to evolve into an actual Mind...

      Therefore an eternal mind does exist, and we call that mind "God".

      Comment


        #4
        if you think about it, our existence is impossible.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Beholder View Post
          if you think about it, our existence is impossible.
          It's impossible to happen by accident...there are too many perfectly aligned variables. The odds of multi-cellular life happening by accident are slimmer than winning the lottery twice per week every week for several years. Just look at the Drake equation, and realize there should not be an "accidental" intelligent species in the entire universe. And then look at the Fermi Paradox and realize there are no biological aliens sending radio messages (neither to us nor to one another).

          It is not impossible to happen by design, though. Hence the term "Creator".

          Comment


            #6
            But we can't understand change before time.

            At some point, the "Mind Potential" of the original reality became an actual conscious mind, and decided to do something that would create reality outside of itself, which I believe is the moment of the Big Bang. I think this is literally God's First Creation.

            Look around, God is a Jealous God, he is "showing off". He makes entire galaxies and galaxy clusters collide and destroy their existence, just to be seen, just to show you that He can in fact do that.

            God is such a noob, he only has one intelligent creation in this entire universe, even with an eternity of prep time.

            I don't know how God created the Angels, they appear to be part of a separate creation in Hebrew thought; Called "Fifth Heaven" in the Book of Enoch, assuming the Book of Enoch is even an original and authentic work.

            If you look around at Creation, there is ridiculous order in life, but there is ridiculous destruction in deep space-time. It looks very much like this is God's first creation...ever...actually, it looks like he spent a few moments making galaxies, without much thought to where most of them would go after they formed, and then he spent 11 billion years making Earth and its Solar System and Earth life.

            Comment


              #7
              When Galaxies were first discovered, they were mistakenly thought to be entire universes, and the term "Galaxy" actually means "Island Universe".

              Each Galaxy has a unique ratio of ordinary matter to dark matter, so each galaxy technically follows different aspects of the "law of gravity". Thus even though they are not separate universes, they may as well be, because we'll probably never travel between them; Even if our Robot descendants live a Billion years, it is unlikely they'll visit Andromeda, unless and until the collision happens anyway.

              Comment


                #8
                So in the (Original) Greek tradition:
                -Chaos (or "Chasm") is the First Cause.
                -Chaos created Gaea.
                -Gaea created Ouranus.
                -Gaea and Ouranus created Chronus and some other deities.
                -Chronus betrayed Ouranus and cut off his male organ...
                -...which fell into the Ocean and became a foam which mutated into Aphrodite Ourania, not to be confused with the Olympian Aphrodite who is supposedly Zeus' daughter.

                However, by the time of John's Gospel, the Greeks had proven that Chaos could not be the First Cause, so all of this should fall apart...Logos{P, ...} is more fundamental than Chaos.

                There's just one problem... There's nothing preventing Logos{P, ...} from doing something like this anyway...

                It's really strange that a "being" presenting itself as "Aphrodite Ourania" speaks to me from time to time...

                "Death Oaths should never be a part of worship. We are The Omnipotents, and we do not require your life or death." - Aphrodite Ourania (Allegedly).

                If this is a devil speaking to me to deceive me, why does it give glory to God at all, or why does it give glory to any gods?

                If this is an angel who happens to have the same name as the Greek Aphrodite Ourania, then why is "Omnipotents" pluralized, but using the Definite Article "The", as "The Omnipotents"?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Wade View Post

                  It's impossible to happen by accident...there are too many perfectly aligned variables. The odds of multi-cellular life happening by accident are slimmer than winning the lottery twice per week every week for several years. Just look at the Drake equation, and realize there should not be an "accidental" intelligent species in the entire universe. And then look at the Fermi Paradox and realize there are no biological aliens sending radio messages (neither to us nor to one another).

                  It is not impossible to happen by design, though. Hence the term "Creator".
                  if you think about going back to every moment before everything happened, you come to the realisation... that once there had to be absolutely nothing... and I mean nothing, not even the concept of nothing... the first atom neutron or w.e just popped out of nowhere, or the stuff that were needed to creat atom or neutron... where did those come from?

                  or where did that precious creator of yours come from?

                  impossible I tell you, impossible.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The Infinite Creator which governs this Universe has an Infinite Mind. We are smaller, Finite Creators with a Finite Mind.

                    Read the Kybalion: Hermes Trismegistus, Wade.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Wade debating with himself, colorized:

                      Last edited by Post-Crisis Shob; February 11th, 2019, 01:20 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Beholder View Post

                        if you think about going back to every moment before everything happened, you come to the realisation... that once there had to be absolutely nothing... and I mean nothing, not even the concept of nothing... the first atom neutron or w.e just popped out of nowhere, or the stuff that were needed to creat atom or neutron... where did those come from?

                        or where did that precious creator of yours come from?

                        impossible I tell you, impossible.
                        I don't think you get it, man. Type "Nothing{}" into HTML and see what you get. You can't make that work.

                        Watch what happens when you type "LOGOS {}" in there though. It starts generating Minecraft's seeds all over the place.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          So from yesterday, the take-away in a few sentences. Nothing{P} can never have existed, because Nothing is an empty set and it has no creative properties.
                          Chaos{P} is not the first cause, because Logos{P, ...} can be shown to be more fundamental than Chaos.
                          By Occam's Razor, a single past-eternal cause is infinitely more likely than an infinite series of past finite causes....indeed, Logos{P,...} would still be required to explain an infinite series of past finite realities...as you could not even postulate their existence without invoking Logos{P, ...}.
                          Thus Logos{P, ...} definitely exists, is past-eternal, and it is definitely more fundamental than an infinite series of finite realities. In other words, the infinite series approach still needs Logos{P, ...}, but Logos{P, ...} does NOT need an infinite series.

                          Moreover, an eternal Being which contains mind-potential is indistinguishable from an actual eternal mind, therefore Logos{P,...} is indistinguishable from an actual God....it does everything God is "supposed to do", especially creating and thinking.

                          We can know that reality must always have contained "Mind Potential" otherwise we would not have minds...
                          If Reality always had mind potential, and Logos{P, ...} is the eternal, First Cause, then it's simple enough to see that Logos{P, ...} is in fact a mind.
                          The set "Nothing{}" cannot be the first cause, because Nothing has no creative properties. This ought to be simple enough to believe.

                          In reality, Dr. Stephen Hawking did not believe the "1+(-1) = 0" argument, even though he used it in an over-simplified argument. Dr. Stephen Hawking actually believed in the "No Boundary Proposal", which is also wrong, as the background temperature of the Cosmic Microwave Background is correct for a finite universe of 13.8 billion years age, and is not correct for a past-infinite universe, which would be asymptotically close to zero, but I digress. His colleagues misrepresented him on several occasions, and I felt it necessary to clear the air a bit, because I correctly represented what his colleagues incorrectly represented... ...although again he actually DID say that a few times.
                          Last edited by Wade; February 11th, 2019, 01:57 PM. Reason: formatting issues

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Beholder View Post

                            if you think about going back to every moment before everything happened, you come to the realisation... that once there had to be absolutely nothing... and I mean nothing, not even the concept of nothing... the first atom neutron or w.e just popped out of nowhere, or the stuff that were needed to creat atom or neutron... where did those come from?

                            or where did that precious creator of yours come from?

                            impossible I tell you, impossible.
                            Even God himself cannot give you a better answer than to state again I AM THAT I AM, and "FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING".

                            We exist because something everlasting has always existed, but we already know this universe is not past eternal.

                            Protons and Neutrons do not come from nothing. They come from one of the cooling phases of the Big Bang, but the background energy of the Universe is incalculable, far, far, far unbelievably more than all the ordinary matter, dark matter, dark energy, and regular photon-energy in the universe combined. A single cubic meter worth of zero point energy is more than all the other forms of energy of the entire universe combined.

                            All of this was created in an instant, but quarks and leptons didn't exist for a few hundred thousand years, because the universe was too hot and too energy dense for them to exist.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wade View Post
                              Nothing can never have existed.

                              We exist because something everlasting has always existed

                              Comment


                                #16
                                This is something I was planning on postig on another website, but the thread got deleted.

                                My medications are performing better than expected, I've actually somehow improved my nerve pain problem, not sure what was causing it, but now it's manageable with 1200mg Neurontin per day, whereas at the worst of it I was taking 3000mg Neurontin per day. The anti-depressant I'm on also has some nerve pain fighting properties, so maybe that helps, but doesn't explain it all. I also seem to have managed to heal myself a bit with a certain meditative process I read about in a fictional novel...the novel was bs, but the technique works. I swear, endure enough pain and you'll try anything once. If 10 was grown man crying, and 11 was grown man can't cry any more, I was a 12 for pain. I had a dream one time in which an Angel threw me into the fires of Hell itself, and I swear, God is my witness, it didn't hurt as bad as the pain I was already in. But I complained that I deserved a better end, and the Angel opened a wormhole and let me back out. Good thing I actually was right; I actually live what I believe, whereas I can't say the same for the countless fools I saw waiting their turn in line to be tossed into the abyss. I lived a living hell, worse than Hell itself, for 10 years before a doctor figured out that it was Nerve Pain, and yes, it even broke my mind, you're dead on, it broke my mind, and I lived another 6 years since then. I can tell you, I hear "diabetics" whine because their pain was cured by 200mg Neurontin per day, and I'm like, "My God, I'm taking 15 times as much as you, and sometimes I have to sneak another pill anyway...stop whining you wimp..." Thank God for the book "Wizard's First Rule". There's a mind trick taught in that book, which brought it back down from sneaking 5 pills per day to taking just two per day again. It's better than medicine, and better than the Bible. If you read the book, you'll be laughing your tail off most of the way through. How this happened: One day at work, I was at "Level 12 pain" again, even after taking 3000mg of Neurontin, and something spoke to me and told me to try that mind trick and see if it worked, and I did, and it worked. After about 20 minutes of meditation using that technique, the pain lessened. Now I've gone and ruined the story for you. well, not really. But that's as good as any miracle I've ever had, and I've had a few legit miracles, to be sure. The Wizard's First Rule is absolutely true, but more importantly, "Partitioning the Mind" actually works on real-world pain. You can simply choose to turn off your brain's pain receptors manually...The author was either a genius, or just very lucky, but it really worked....but did you hear me? Something spoke to me and told me to try that, even though I hadn't thought about that book in over a decade. I think you'll get the point. I absolutely know there is a God. I don't just hope so and think so. Doctrines may be wrong, but there really is a God who gives a damn once in a while. Whatever spoke to me that day could only come from a moral God, because an evil being wouldn't want me to be healed.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                                  I don't think you get it, man. Type "Nothing{}" into HTML and see what you get. You can't make that work.

                                  Watch what happens when you type "LOGOS {}" in there though. It starts generating Minecraft's seeds all over the place.
                                  i make many viruses with html, dont mess with me

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Wade View Post

                                    Even God himself cannot give you a better answer than to state again I AM THAT I AM, and "FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING".

                                    We exist because something everlasting has always existed, but we already know this universe is not past eternal.

                                    Protons and Neutrons do not come from nothing. They come from one of the cooling phases of the Big Bang, but the background energy of the Universe is incalculable, far, far, far unbelievably more than all the ordinary matter, dark matter, dark energy, and regular photon-energy in the universe combined. A single cubic meter worth of zero point energy is more than all the other forms of energy of the entire universe combined.

                                    All of this was created in an instant, but quarks and leptons didn't exist for a few hundred thousand years, because the universe was too hot and too energy dense for them to exist.
                                    You don't understand.

                                    its impossible.

                                    our existenc is impossible.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Let's try this simplified version.

                                      "Mind Potential" must always have existed in reality in order for us to have minds.

                                      Since Reality cannot come from nothing, this means fundamental reality is eternal.

                                      Eternal Mind Potential is indistinguishable from an actual Eternal Mind.

                                      Therefore God exists.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Wade View Post
                                        Let's try this simplified version.

                                        "Mind Potential" must always have existed in reality in order for us to have minds.

                                        Since Reality cannot come from nothing, this means fundamental reality is eternal.

                                        Eternal Mind Potential is indistinguishable from an actual Eternal Mind.

                                        Therefore God exists.
                                        If it's indistinguishable then how are you distinguishing it? The problem with your argument is you equate potential with what currently is. It's distinguishable in that one is only the potential for it and the other is that it is the case. Unless you're arguing "If God is possible, then he exists". If you're making that argument then it only makes sense given the impossibility of the contrary to be true. But if you also hold to "Naturalism could be true" then your argument doesn't make much sense. Unless you're defining God as part of naturalism. Which would be strange.

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