Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

I think President Trump probably broke the law at some point, but...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #61
    Originally posted by King John View Post
    so where's the extortion again?
    In the part where everyone in Trump's circle has said "he didn't intend to release the aid until the investigation was launched."

    Just because Trump got scared and released the aid once it became clear that impeachment was on the table does not mean that he didn't commit a crime.

    An attempted murder is still a criminal act, you dumbass.


    Originally posted by King John View Post
    Except for when he reiterated that he wasn't talking about Trump not being truthful.
    Except Mueller never said that, someone else said that was Meuller's intent. We know, for a fact, that Trump lied about his campaign's cooperation with Wikileaks. And he did it under oath. That's not speculation.


    Originally posted by King John View Post
    So it is ok to withhold funds to "extort" foreign countries to do the bidding of America, got it. Now why would that fact that Biden's a politician make him exempt from being investigated by a foreign country. You said yourself it seems shady, why would it be wrong to investigate into a shady situation?
    Nope.

    It's alright for the United States to withhold aid when a foreign country is protecting a corrupt politician.

    It's not alright for the President of the United States to withhold aid until a foreign country agrees to investigate one of the President's political opponents.

    Furthermore, Biden made the initial threat in a public hearing at the Ukraine Parliament... And when he did, he was aligning himself alongside many other groups who were also demanding that the prosecutor be fired for his corruption. He did not make that threat in a private conversation with the Ukrainian President and he didn't subsequently have that conversation moved to a top-secret file where the public couldn't access it.

    Furthermore still, as previously mentioned, Biden had no personal reasons to demand Shoakin be ousted. Hunter Biden was not under investigation in Ukraine. The prosecutor did have a case shelved against the company that Hunter was on the board of, but that investigation had been opened before Hunter was put on the board. Therefore there is zero reason to believe there was any foul play involved in this. Joe was not using his power as the VP to protect his son, he was using the authority of the United States to demand a corrupt prosecutor be removed from office.

    So drop it already, you're grasping at straws here and quite frankly, arguing this point over and over is a waste of both of our time. Just admit you made a mistake in not looking into it and move on. You'll definitely get more respect than you will if you keep pushing this as a reason that Trump's blatant abuse isn't wrong.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

      Haha, naaah. Especially as the information that was supposedly hacked was "maliciously" fed to WikiLeaks. Say what you will about Julian Assange, but nobody can deny that he's an agent of Veritas first and foremost.
      So you're saying that it wouldn't be treasonous for me to ask a foreign government, on international television, to attack the United States?

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Cid View Post

        So you're saying that it wouldn't be treasonous for me to ask a foreign government, on international television, to attack the United States?
        "Attack" implies malicious intent. However, exposing corruption and wrongdoing within the upper echelons of the government is the definition of patriotic, and this being done by a third party doesn't change that.
        Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; November 16th, 2019, 06:17 PM.

        Comment


          #64
          You know what's funny is that Trump is going to be impeached (successfully removed or not) for all these foreign affairs he mixed in with his political rivalries. Which is nice, I guess. But when Trump vetoed a bill to stop funding Saudi's brutal war on Yemen...nothing really happened.

          Nor did anyone in the establishment try to impeach Bush or Obama for all the wars they caused or other constitutionally questionable things they did (Patriot Act and the NSA-Snowden affair). Well, some people had an angry word or two...

          ...But when govvies start going after each other...

          ...That's when they bring out the big guns...
          Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 16th, 2019, 06:21 PM.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post
            "Attack" implies malicious intent.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post
              You know what's funny is that Trump is going to be impeached (successfully removed or not) for all these foreign affairs he mixed in with his political rivalries. Which is nice, I guess. But when Trump vetoed a bill to stop funding Saudi's brutal war on Yemen...nothing really happened.

              Nor did anyone in the establishment try to impeach Bush or Obama for all the wars they caused or other constitutionally questionable things they did (Patriot Act and the NSA-Snowden affair). Well, some people had an angry word or two...

              ...But when govvies start going after each other...

              ...That's when they bring out the big guns...
              Wouldn't it be nice if presidents could actually be held accountable for the terrible things they do?
              Originally posted by Wade
              Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Cid View Post

                Which part are you having trouble understanding, friend

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
                  Wouldn't it be nice if presidents could actually be held accountable for the terrible things they do?
                  Is this a snub at my position on Trump's impeachment?

                  I've already stated that I don't believe presidents should be dicking around with foreign affairs to serve their electoral interests and that I support impeaching anyone for it.

                  I just hold skepticism for Dems' intentions on the matter and how good they actually are...

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                    Which part are you having trouble understanding, friend
                    Mostly the part where you implied Trump was trying to expose corruption as opposed to simply trying to drag his political opponent through the mud for his own personal gain. lmao.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Cid View Post

                      Mostly the part where you implied Trump was trying to expose corruption as opposed to simply trying to drag his political opponent through the mud for his own personal gain. lmao.
                      I was mostly talking about Julian Assange (an Aussie), but that's a hot take.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                        I was mostly talking about Julian Assange (an Aussie), but that's a hot take.
                        I don't really care about Assange? I never even mentioned him?

                        I meant Trump was treasonous for asking Russia to hack HIllary's emails.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Cid View Post

                          I don't really care about Assange? I never even mentioned him?

                          I meant Trump was treasonous for asking Russia to hack HIllary's emails.
                          "Politicians digging up dirt on their political opponents within the US is just part of the game, but asking big, bad Russia to do it is bad. Very bad."

                          Yeah, it's Trump's fault that American hackers are incompetent and/or have small balls.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post
                            but asking big, bad Russia to do it is bad. Very bad."
                            Yes. Yes it is. Hillary was Secretary of State. She had access to tons of high-security information. It's straight up treason to ask a foreign government to attack US interests and steal that data.

                            Are you being serious here or are you trying to troll me?

                            I kind of feel like you should be offended that I even have to entertain the notion that you're being serious.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                              "Politicians digging up dirt on their political opponents within the US is just part of the game, but asking big, bad Russia to do it is bad. Very bad."

                              Yeah, it's Trump's fault that American hackers are incompetent and/or have small balls.
                              I mean, keeping the competition internal keeps the political actors under some sort of watch for their shady shit, even if it's ultimately a game of self-interest and not the most ideal situation.

                              However, if we start allowing politicians to use foreign aid to accomplish these goals...

                              Well, it might just be a hack to expose some emails today, but...it might be worse tomorrow. And with nations like China investing in quantum computers (which can fuck with anything a classical computer can put up)...

                              ...It's best to avoid even dabbling in that area...
                              Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 16th, 2019, 07:12 PM.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Cid View Post

                                Yes. Yes it is. Hillary was Secretary of State. She had access to tons of high-security information. It's straight up treason to ask a foreign government to attack US interests and steal that data.

                                Are you being serious here or are you trying to troll me?

                                I kind of feel like you should be offended that I even have to entertain the notion that you're being serious.
                                Is Edward Snowden a traitor?: Y/N

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                                  Is Edward Snowden a traitor?: Y/N
                                  He's a criminal. He used his position to leak classified information. I've always said he should have returned to America and sought a plea deal for what he did.

                                  Of course, whether he's a traitor or not is murky because, though his actions destroyed American interests abroad he also pulled the cover off of illegal surveillance on US citizens and exposed rampant corruption. His leaks were controlled, however, being contained exclusively to the illegal actions of the US government. Furthermore, he actually tried to raise his concerns the correct way before he resorted to becoming a whistleblower. It's also pretty apparent that his motive wasn't personal but was ethical.

                                  It's completely different from a Presidential Candidate asking a foreign government to attack a US Government Official's email account for the sole purpose of uncovering some dirt he could sling at her.

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by Cid View Post

                                    He's a criminal. He used his position to leak classified information. I've always said he should have returned to America and sought a plea deal for what he did.

                                    Of course, whether he's a traitor or not is murky because, though his actions destroyed American interests abroad he also pulled the cover off of illegal surveillance on US citizens and exposed rampant corruption. His leaks were controlled, however, being contained exclusively to the illegal actions of the US government. Furthermore, he actually tried to raise his concerns the correct way before he resorted to becoming a whistleblower. It's also pretty apparent that his motive wasn't personal but was ethical.

                                    It's completely different from a Presidential Candidate asking a foreign government to attack a US Government Official's email account for the sole purpose of uncovering some dirt he could sling at her.
                                    Moscow is quite literally the safest place in the world for a folk hero like Snowden. If he were dumb enough to willingly return to the US (seeing as they can't force extradition), he would no doubt be found dead a week later, having committed suicide by stabbing himself in the back repeatedly. Hell, he probably shouldn't risk it even after an official presidential pardon because that would provide an illusion of security at best.

                                    Now, unless you think Snowden was some deep-cover FSB plant placed with the sole intent of undermining American hegemony, this proves that even the boogeyman itself (i.e., Russia) can protect the interests of regular American citizens and not just the aristocracy like our own government. Sure, they clearly have their own agenda, but that's something that's true of everyone in every interaction they will ever make in their entire life, so getting hung up over that is pretty silly.

                                    Similarly, I'm glad that they uncovered this dirt on Clinton. People should know who they're potentially voting into office and there should be much more transparency throughout as Snowden previously proved. It's not like they just made this shit up either. If Hillary hadn't been dirty all day, she would've had nothing to fear.

                                    Besides, getting anally flustered that a politician did something to promote their own-self interests (gee, what a UNIQUE concept) just because their source wasn't "ideal" is the height of pedantry and a painfully obvious attempt to divert attention away from actual wrongdoing.
                                    Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; November 17th, 2019, 02:11 AM.

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                                      I mean, keeping the competition internal keeps the political actors under some sort of watch for their shady shit, even if it's ultimately a game of self-interest and not the most ideal situation.

                                      However, if we start allowing politicians to use foreign aid to accomplish these goals...

                                      Well, it might just be a hack to expose some emails today, but...it might be worse tomorrow. And with nations like China investing in quantum computers (which can fuck with anything a classical computer can put up)...

                                      ...It's best to avoid even dabbling in that area...
                                      I'd take an honest (in this case, a dishonest, but bumbling) crook over a somewhat competent dirty cop any day.

                                      Russia may despise Hillary and Biden for their tenure during the Obama administration, but if you genuinely think they haven't used their deep connections elsewhere to dig up dirt on Drumpf, y'all are even more gullible than I thought. The only difference is that they're smart enough to get away clean. lol
                                      Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; November 17th, 2019, 02:25 AM.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                                        I'd take an honest, or at least a bumbling, crook over a (competent) dirty cop any day.

                                        Russia may despise Hillary and Biden for their tenure during the Obama administration, but if you genuinely think they haven't used their deep connections elsewhere to dig up dirt on Drumpf, y'all are even more gullible than I thought. The only difference is that they're smart enough to actually get away with it. lol
                                        ...I never said anything about Hillary and Biden’s connections...

                                        But, I am very aware that the way they dig up dirt on our favorite Tweeter-in-chief isn’t all too preferable from said chief’s own shenanigans (even WaPo admitted that the Steele Dossier, which helped kick off the Russian Collusion scare had financial links to the DNC, and Hillary specifically, and they’re as firmly against Trump as they come).

                                        ...What exactly is the point here?

                                        I’m just saying that I don’t want political actors using foreigners for their bullshit, lol.

                                        Think of the position as trying to keep the people messing with us to a minimum, because foreign meddling can’t remain “harmless” forever if we accept it in favor of catching the politicians we don’t like red handed...
                                        Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; November 17th, 2019, 02:37 AM.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post
                                          I’m just saying that I don’t want political actors using foreigners for their bullshit, lol.
                                          But why? At bare minimum, British royals, Saudi oil barons, and Israeli lobbyists have always been heavily invested in American elections. All Trump did was inadvertently lift the wool from people's eyes, as is his wont.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X