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is abortion murder?

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    is abortion murder?

    that j-pan thing, it's made me revisit this question. I'm still on the fence about it for the most part, but taking a look at what argumentation could be used for the pro-life angle has made me realize it is much less ambiguous and far more consistent than the pro-choice alternative.....after all, there is no clear-cut distinction between an embryo and an infant, everyone just kind of draws this arbitrary line about "consciousness", which is something we still don't fully understand to this day, or says something strange about self-sustainability when that metric is literally never applied to anything else in life. An embryo is to an infant what an infant is to an adult; a developmental stage, with a fairly obvious future. This is a pretty clear distinction from a lone sperm or unfertilized egg, which are two separate parts with no obvious future. Thus, when using a condom or menstruating or what have you, you can't really say you're "murdering" a being as there is no distinguishable entity being extinguished.

    "But what about miscarriages? Are those murder, as well?"

    Again, I haven't had much time to think about this, but I would say that it's probably not....at least, not unless the female knew she was pregnant and knew of a way that the miscarriage could have been avoided. It'd be like having a baby in your care die due to negligence, basically.

    Those are some of my thoughts, anyway.....how about you guys??? lets get this firestorm started =)
    Last edited by Helly; August 30th, 2019, 02:18 PM.

    #2
    no

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      #3
      What? No, of course not. lol

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        #4
        if you guys could provide your reasons, thatd be great




        I'm going to go ahead and preempt a few of the obvious talking points, as I don't like retreading old waters:




        1.) You say that the self-sustainability standard isn't used anywhere else, but what about human vegetables or braindead people who need a machine to live?

        A: Well, these things are still murder, they just aren't unlawful murders. Particularly in the case of the vegetables, they might still be very much aware of their surroundings and thus still retain their personhood 100%, but if their condition is deemed irreversible then their family might decide to kill them out of kindness. Of course, we typically don't use words like "murder" or "kill" in these situations as they are typically associated with a specific type of moral baggage, but this is what they are, categorically speaking.

        In the case of the braindead person, this is someone who has no future and will further deteriorate; They are beyond rescuing, and it is seen as a mercy to end their lives for their sake as well as their family's.

        Note that neither of these lines of reasoning are even remotely applicable to what happens when considering the murder of an unborn child. They are killed because they lack "personhood" by some completely arbitrary measure that won't always be true in the case of a developing life.




        2.) Couldn't we also call sperm or ovum a "developmental stage"?

        A: No. They won't develop into anything at all, ever, not without the other critical component. They are an automatic and incomplete part of a whole, like a skin cell or a hair. You would not consider killing such things "murder" any more than you would call your barber a serial killer.



        3.) HehEhEHe sT0oPId coCKserVatIveS giB a ShIt aBoUt uNboRN tUmOrS....WhAt aBoUt thE hOmeLeSs?????¿¿?¿ hUH?¿?¿??¿ wHaT aBoUT hoMeleSs Pe0Pl3, CoCkSerVAtivEs????¿


        What about them? It's a totally separate issue. Do you think I'm pro-poverty? Are you pro-beheadings because you directly funded the cartels running my country to the ground with your weed-smoking habits, hmm? Hundreds of women and children go missing in Mexico every year, should I pin that on you, you child-killing son of a bitch?
        Last edited by Helly; August 30th, 2019, 03:07 PM.

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          #5
          Originally posted by Helly View Post
          if you guys could provide your reasons, thatd be great

          Well... The science says that a fetus isn't viable until around 24 weeks, so any point before that the fetus can't really be considered human, or even alive for that matter.
          Last edited by Cid; August 30th, 2019, 03:33 PM.

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            #6
            Of course not lol. If it is, then arrest me for war crimes when I spit a fat one.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Cid View Post


              Well... The science says that a fetus isn't viable until around 24 weeks, so any point before that the fetus can't really be considered human, or even alive for that matter.
              Sure, but science is notoriously insufficient when it comes to providing answers for moral questions. This is one such case, as this line of reasoning is equally strange to the ones I summed up in my second post. A fetus may not be "viable", but neither is an infant or a small child. Like a fetus, they too require an enormous amount of care and resources from their mother and/or father in order to just survive. And going back to my point on human vegetables, these are people who can't sustain themselves on their own at all, but they still retain their personhood and when the plug is pulled there is no mistake that what is dying is indeed a human being.


              Originally posted by Zemoco View Post
              Of course not lol. If it is, then arrest me for war crimes when I spit a fat one.
              See argument #2

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                #8
                The brain has developed by week 10 or so
                It's murder
                Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

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                  #9
                  """Science""" also says you can cut your dick off and become a woman lmao
                  Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                  Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

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                    #10
                    probably closer manslaughter

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                      #11
                      Aborting the little shit is doing them a favor. Also, if I'm strapped up to a machine with tubes down my throat and a pan under my butt, please kill me.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by DokTOR. View Post
                        """Science""" also says you can cut your dick off and become a woman lmao
                        this is a good point

                        a pubic hair filled stink ditch will never be a real vagina
                        Originally posted by Kajin_Style
                        I have this illness called "Having-a-Heart" and gives me this irrational sense of empathy and care for my fellow man.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Max View Post
                          Aborting the little shit is doing them a favor. Also, if I'm strapped up to a machine with tubes down my throat and a pan under my butt, please kill me.
                          Hmm....well, this is sort of the 3rd argument. If you are saying "we would do them a favour because they'll end up homeless or in jail", this is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether or not abortion is murder. It sidesteps the question entirely and presupposes an outcome for all unborn fetuses, which is more than unfair to say the least.

                          But let's go ahead and humour this for a bit, let's assume that all adopted children end up in unfavourable circumstances; Is unhappiness enough to warrant the killing of another person? You say "put them out of their misery", but I will point you to the millions of people worldwide battling with cancer, battling with starvation, battling with all manners of ills a thousand times worse than any foster home. And yet the overwhelming majority refuse to off themselves, even when their chances of having a better life are 0, even when they believe there is a better life after death.

                          The mere notion that a bit of suffering and hardship is enough to tip the scales in favor of complete death is wholly nonsensical. Suffering is the necessary price all of us pay for existing, without any exeption. To be is infinitely more valuable than not to be, and that is why the overwhelming majority of people will choose to suffer immensely another day than to die and feel nothing forever.


                          Anyway.....to your second point, what if there existed a very real possibility that you would get better in 9 months and live a lifetime of experiences?

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                            #14
                            So what if it's murder? It makes things easier.
                            Last edited by Thar; August 30th, 2019, 08:47 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by DokTOR. View Post
                              """Science""" also says you can cut your dick off and become a woman lmao
                              maybe you should try that, perhaps as a woman you'd find a desperate guy enough to fuck you so you could finally lose your virginity.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Helly View Post

                                Hmm....well, this is sort of the 3rd argument. If you are saying "we would do them a favour because they'll end up homeless or in jail", this is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether or not abortion is murder. It sidesteps the question entirely and presupposes an outcome for all unborn fetuses, which is more than unfair to say the least.

                                But let's go ahead and humour this for a bit, let's assume that all adopted children end up in unfavourable circumstances; Is unhappiness enough to warrant the killing of another person? You say "put them out of their misery", but I will point you to the millions of people worldwide battling with cancer, battling with starvation, battling with all manners of ills a thousand times worse than any foster home. And yet the overwhelming majority refuse to off themselves, even when their chances of having a better life are 0, even when they believe there is a better life after death.

                                The mere notion that a bit of suffering and hardship is enough to tip the scales in favor of complete death is wholly nonsensical. Suffering is the necessary price all of us pay for existing, without any exeption. To be is infinitely more valuable than not to be, and that is why the overwhelming majority of people will choose to suffer immensely another day than to die and feel nothing forever.


                                Anyway.....to your second point, what if there existed a very real possibility that you would get better in 9 months and live a lifetime of experiences?
                                I'm not sitting in booboo for nine months, guy.

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                                  #17
                                  What the FUCK does ANY of this have to do with the fact that you’re a tranny?
                                  Last edited by Ziku; August 30th, 2019, 11:53 PM.

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                                    #18
                                    I wonder how many pro-choicers would be cool with some married guy donkey-kicking his pregnant mistress' belly, so that she miscarries his lovechild. Timeline being some point before the de facto 12-week "cut-off," of course. I do wonder.
                                    Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; August 31st, 2019, 02:30 AM.

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Thar View Post
                                      So what if it's murder? It makes things easier.
                                      Lmao

                                      Originally posted by Kajin_Style ;n513566
                                      Why should I even give a damn that some faggot is being stoned to death in another country?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I can't really argue that it's not murder, if we establish that it's not alive (whatever the metric is that we're using for that).

                                        I will say, however, that it's a joke to compare it to an actual, legit murder. A fetus has nothing it's working toward, it has no goals and no aspirations. It has nothing that it has already accomplished, and it leaves behind no one to mourn it (assuming both parents agreed to the abortion). The only thing that's taken away is a handful of placenta and the potential for more.

                                        Compare that to the murder of an innocent man, who leaves a hole in the hearts of dozens of people at least, some of which that will probably fall into depression or shock over the event. His kids go without the support and guidance he provided, and his spouse is left with no idea how to carry on without him. He'll never get to finish writing that book he was thinking about, will never get to get to see his shitty football team win the super bowl. Even the local grocery store is gonna miss his business, which is more than what you lose when two parents agree to an abortion.

                                        Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post
                                        I wonder how many pro-choicers would be cool with some married guy donkey-kicking his pregnant mistress' belly, so that she miscarries his lovechild. Timeline being some point before the de facto 12-week "cut-off," of course. I do wonder.
                                        Probably comparable to the number of pro-lifers that are cool with couples doing that across the board, once the local planned parenthood is replaced by an In 'N Out.
                                        Originally posted by Wade
                                        Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

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