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    The problem with UBI is the associated costs. It works well in smaller countries, but in the US you're going to have some 180 million people on it. I don't understand how he's going to pay for it if we're also moving towards single-payer healthcare and tuition-free college. That's going to be a ton of money coming out of the annual budget. Simply getting rid of current welfare programs and raising taxes won't cut it.

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      Originally posted by Cid View Post
      The problem with UBI is the associated costs. It works well in smaller countries, but in the US you're going to have some 180 million people on it. I don't understand how he's going to pay for it if we're also moving towards single-payer healthcare and tuition-free college. That's going to be a ton of money coming out of the annual budget. Simply getting rid of current welfare programs and raising taxes won't cut it.
      It also goes with his planned system of pushing for automation rather than the current regulatory system that pushes to stop automation.

      By shifting the economy to one of automation and innovation the idea is to make the profits in production high enough to increase tax revenue while also cutting labor costs to almost nil making it so the costs of good is also decreased. It's a little early imo but I feel it's not horribly unreasonable. If transportation is totally automated along with production then almost half of american jobs are lost and then we're in a state where people will need a UBI otherwise there will be rampant poverty. Just the same this is bottom up economics as the mass majority of people would be spending that money as soon as it hits their wallet meaning that the money won't simply stagnate at the top. So it'll be an initial investment that will be costly, but it would lead to greater economic prosperity in the long term.

      and you full well know that single-payer healthcare will actually SAVE the government money annually compared to our current system and make the american people more productive due to healthier outcomes.

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        I had a friend that did the math on UBI, he figured it was gonna run us like 17 trillion dollars a year iirc. There are more benefits than I'd assumed, but that's insane
        Originally posted by Wade
        Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

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          Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post
          I had a friend that did the math on UBI, he figured it was gonna run us like 17 trillion dollars a year iirc. There are more benefits than I'd assumed, but that's insane
          Again there's the downpayment aspect. If you think about it most people are paid more than $1000 a month from their job, and if the goal is to get everyone employed that means that the businesses need to generate that much wealth in either way. Otherwise you will constantly have the scenario of poverty that we already see. However if we embrace automation and allow for prices to crater down to incredibly cheap levels by cutting out labor costs in as many ways as possible cost of living will plummet (so will wages but again UBI handles that). This has numerous side effects like discouraging illegal immigration being as without proof of citizenship you couldn't receive UBI and employers don't need illegal cheap labor when they have automation and a buyer's market on labor with little to no regulation on how much one needs pay employees.

          This means that profits would get to ridiculous levels as production speeds would increase and exports would surge as we would be able to undercut competition unless they also embraced this model.


          Point is with automation in the works the future is already going to have a massive increase in poverty with our current system, it's going to take a radical system like UBI with high taxation on profits to make it work without reactionary responses to automation which will only hinder our growth as a nation and as a competitor in global economics.

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            The thing is, that $17 trillion dollar price tag isn't a down-payment. Those are the annual payments for the rest of eternity if we implemented Yang's "Freedom Dividend." And that $17 trillion comes directly out of the government's coffers and they'll only collect about 15% of it back directly each year in the form of taxes. (Even less if a lot of it goes towards food in states that don't tax food.) I'm just struggling to see how the government makes up the rest of that 85% that they're giving away. From what research I did into Yang's proposed plan, the math just doesn't add up. We're going to stack trillions onto the debt each and every year. Of course, his plan isn't really comprehensive at all. There's a lot of gaps to fill in. Wish Yang would do it so we can get a better idea.

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              I don't think that :$17 trillion" number is accurate, actually.

              There's 254 million adults in the US. And the UBI would give them $12,000 a year. That totals up to about just a bit over $3 trillion. That's significantly more palatable than $17 trillion.

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                Originally posted by Cid View Post
                I don't think that :$17 trillion" number is accurate, actually.

                There's 254 million adults in the US. And the UBI would give them $12,000 a year. That totals up to about just a bit over $3 trillion. That's significantly more palatable than $17 trillion.
                I honestly didn't pay that close of attention to the number, as often times people use 10 year models like with healthcare and such. I focus more on the $1000 a month, and considering how for most americans $0 would make it to the next month meaning it'd be going back into an economy that has low cost of living and cost of goods with almost no need for labor.

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                  Originally posted by Cid View Post
                  I don't think that :$17 trillion" number is accurate, actually.

                  There's 254 million adults in the US. And the UBI would give them $12,000 a year. That totals up to about just a bit over $3 trillion. That's significantly more palatable than $17 trillion.
                  I dunno what his math was on that, lol. I don't even in now how he got it that far off.
                  Originally posted by Wade
                  Everything is hidden in plain sight, like in Men in Black. We've all just been neuralized to think it is "normal".

                  Comment


                    There's still the problem that Yang's proposed plan, mathematically, only covers about half of the associated costs. So we've still got to come up with $1.5 trillion per year from somewhere.

                    For reference, the entire budget of the United States is somewhere around $4.4 Trillion for 2019. So you're talking about something near a 34% increase in spending. We can take about $300 Billion off that number, because we'll still collect about 10% of it back through the federal tax on purchased goods. But that's still $1.2 trillion. Businesses will have higher profits and should pay more in taxes as well. But that number isn't quantifiable. You'd need an economist to make an estimate. But I sincerely doubt the government is going to collect an extra trillion dollars from business taxes.

                    I've seen one proposal to offset the cost, and that was increasing Yang's 10% VAT tax to 20%. But at that point, that $1000 is getting taxed so hard that it would probably be more beneficial for low-income families to stay on the other welfare programs they're currently on.

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                      https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html

                      Liz seems to finally be taking over the top spot in the polls. Hopefully this is the beginning of a downward spiral for Biden. Because I'll vote for Warren, I won't like it but I will. But I will not, under any circumstances, vote for Biden. I'd hate to contribute to another four years of President Twitler.

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                        Originally posted by Cid View Post
                        https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html

                        Liz seems to finally be taking over the top spot in the polls. Hopefully this is the beginning of a downward spiral for Biden. Because I'll vote for Warren, I won't like it but I will. But I will not, under any circumstances, vote for Biden. I'd hate to contribute to another four years of President Twitler.
                        He'll handily body Warren as well, lol, if his most recent approval rating (following formal initiation of the impeachment process, for the record) is anything to go by. He's actually more favorable than ever before.
                        Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; October 8th, 2019, 11:00 PM.

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                          Originally posted by J peth View Post

                          It also goes with his planned system of pushing for automation
                          Oh, no......

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                            Hopefully Biden tanks more in the next debate. Same for Kamala, even tho she's pretty low rn, she should be even lower.

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                              Originally posted by Ladd View Post
                              Hopefully Biden tanks more in the next debate. Same for Kamala, even tho she's pretty low rn, she should be even lower.
                              As bad as Harris and Biden are, Warren is the worst of the lot by far. She's "low-key" a moderate who's only running as a "progressive" to steal Sanders' voterbase and ruining any chances of him effecting any real change. And it's working. I can't believe how many people are buying into the obvious snake oil that she's been peddling. Bitch even pretended to be Native American a while back to secure the diversity vote despite being whiter than Wonder Bread and got de-STROYed by Trump as a result. How do people not remember that shit, lmao.
                              Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; October 9th, 2019, 02:39 AM.

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                                Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                                As bad as Harris and Biden are, Warren is the worst of the lot by far. She's "low-key" a moderate who's only running as a "progressive" to steal Sanders' voterbase and ruining any chances of him effecting any real change. And it's working. I can't believe how many people are buying into the obvious snake oil that she's been peddling. Bitch even pretended to be Native American a while back to secure the diversity vote despite being whiter than Wonder Bread and got de-STROYed by Trump as a result. How do people not remember that shit, lmao.
                                My main reason for not wanting Biden is not just because he's male Hillary but because he'd for sure get dumpstered by Trump. He has half a brain cell left and is using it to talk about record players and corn pop.

                                I don't think Warren is a completely fake progressive but I can't say all the recent shit from her isn't worrying. Plus we can't forget she endorsed Hillary over Bernie despite supposedly leaning more towards him ideologically than her. And she seems to be catering to centrists and used a pretty sleazy trick to take big money donations despite claiming she wouldn't take big money. And of course she voted for Trump's bloated military budget.

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                                  Originally posted by Ladd View Post
                                  Plus we can't forget she endorsed Hillary over Bernie despite supposedly leaning more towards him ideologically than her.
                                  Right, because she's actually a moderate who only recently rebranded to siphon/split the Bernie vote. The rest of what you said is just further proof that you shouldn't trust a word that comes out of her mouth. Literally Hillary v2.

                                  As for Biden, he actually had a very good chance of bodying Trump before self-sabotaging + being cannibalized by his own party. The ONLY thing he needed to do to secure a W in 2020 was winning over the Rust Belt states Hillary lost. :|

                                  Imagine snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.
                                  Last edited by Lord L'Zoril; October 9th, 2019, 04:23 AM.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Lord L'Zoril View Post

                                    He'll handily body Warren as well, lol, if his most recent approval rating (following formal initiation of the impeachment process, for the record) is anything to go by. He's actually more favorable than ever before.
                                    She's got a better chance than Biden, since she's actually competent. She'd destroy Trump in the debates, just like Hillary did. And she's a bit more likable and personable than Hillary, despite mostly being a fraud still. And even though Trump's numbers are up some, they're still among the lowest ever. So it's not really saying much. Lol

                                    But that's not the reason I'd vote for her anyway. I basically made up my mind that I'm going to swallow my pride and vote for the democrat this coming election just because of how awful Trump has been. The only exception was if the DNC managed to push another Republican that literally nobody wanted. Which means I can't vote for Biden.
                                    Last edited by Cid; October 9th, 2019, 05:53 AM.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Cid View Post
                                      There's still the problem that Yang's proposed plan, mathematically, only covers about half of the associated costs. So we've still got to come up with $1.5 trillion per year from somewhere.

                                      For reference, the entire budget of the United States is somewhere around $4.4 Trillion for 2019. So you're talking about something near a 34% increase in spending. We can take about $300 Billion off that number, because we'll still collect about 10% of it back through the federal tax on purchased goods. But that's still $1.2 trillion. Businesses will have higher profits and should pay more in taxes as well. But that number isn't quantifiable. You'd need an economist to make an estimate. But I sincerely doubt the government is going to collect an extra trillion dollars from business taxes.

                                      I've seen one proposal to offset the cost, and that was increasing Yang's 10% VAT tax to 20%. But at that point, that $1000 is getting taxed so hard that it would probably be more beneficial for low-income families to stay on the other welfare programs they're currently on.
                                      I'm pretty sure if we increase the higher tax brackets and push for automation it'd make the difference.

                                      but there is a reason why he's my #3.

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                                        Originally posted by Cid View Post

                                        She's got a better chance than Biden, since she's actually competent. She'd destroy Trump in the debates, just like Hillary did. And she's a bit more likable and personable than Hillary, despite mostly being a fraud still. And even though Trump's numbers are up some, they're still among the lowest ever. So it's not really saying much. Lol

                                        But that's not the reason I'd vote for her anyway. I basically made up my mind that I'm going to swallow my pride and vote for the democrat this coming election just because of how awful Trump has been. The only exception was if the DNC managed to push another Republican that literally nobody wanted. Which means I can't vote for Biden.
                                        I wouldn't say that, almost every debate I can remember Trump managed to crush her with one-liners. the only way you can consider him winning is if you dissected the debate rationally issue by issue... which isn't how general election votes are decided. Though I do agree Warren would probably do well in the debates, I cannot agree that Hillary "won" the debates she had with Trump.

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                                          Originally posted by J peth View Post

                                          I'm pretty sure if we increase the higher tax brackets and push for automation it'd make the difference.

                                          but there is a reason why he's my #3.
                                          I'd just like to see him fully flesh his plan out. Yang claimed when he launched his campaign that he's a "numbers guy" so he kind of needs to put the numbers up if he wants to be taken seriously as a contender. I like some of his ideals, I really do. But he's kind of like Buttigeig, that's all he has. He doesn't have any full plans out there, just pieces.

                                          Originally posted by J peth View Post

                                          I wouldn't say that, almost every debate I can remember Trump managed to crush her with one-liners. the only way you can consider him winning is if you dissected the debate rationally issue by issue... which isn't how general election votes are decided. Though I do agree Warren would probably do well in the debates, I cannot agree that Hillary "won" the debates she had with Trump.
                                          General election debates aren't really for the democrats or republicans. Those votes are already decided. The general debates are for the people who haven't made a decision and are watching the debates so they can see what he candidate has to say about the issues. So yes, absolutely. Hillary mopped the floor with Trump in all of their debates. Only thing Trump won was the meme war. That's why Hillary won the popular vote by such a large margin. She won more of the fence sitters, probably because of how much more intelligent and well-spoken she was. lol.

                                          I mean, had Hillary not just assumed that she'd win the rust belt out of principal of being a democrat... She probably would have mopped the floor with him in the electoral college as well. She just fucked up and didn't campaign in those blue states that Trump flipped.

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