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    Oh fuck yes, something that I'm actually incredibly opinionated on. Education is good, how long are we going to have to discuss? Was it about two weeks again?

    Comment


      Originally posted by Cid View Post
      Oh fuck yes, something that I'm actually incredibly opinionated on. Education is good, how long are we going to have to discuss? Was it about two weeks again?
      I made it shorter than the last one because it seemed like I gave an excessive amount of time where no one was talking about anything after we hammered out a rough agreement on the major issues, and I thought education would be less hot-button than immigration.

      But I can change the time table if theres a big discussion still going after two weeks.

      Tenatively--lets aim for two weeks.

      You have the floor good sir.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Post-Crisis Shob View Post

        I made it shorter than the last one because it seemed like I gave an excessive amount of time where no one was talking about anything after we hammered out a rough agreement on the major issues, and I thought education would be less hot-button than immigration.

        But I can change the time table if theres a big discussion still going after two weeks.

        Tenatively--lets aim for two weeks.

        You have the floor good sir.
        When you say "you have the floor", we can still all post our thoughts right? Or do we wait?

        Comment


          Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

          When you say "you have the floor", we can still all post our thoughts right? Or do we wait?
          Feel free to post. I've been awake for 22 hours now and anything I have to say in my condition is going to be rambly, full of errors, and probably just outright angry.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Cid View Post

            Feel free to post. I've been awake for 22 hours now and anything I have to say in my condition is going to be rambly, full of errors, and probably just outright angry.
            I can't, going to work rn lol

            Comment


              Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

              I can't, going to work rn lol
              Man... It's weird when people don't work third shift like me.

              Comment


                Originally posted by OrganizationXV View Post

                When you say "you have the floor", we can still all post our thoughts right? Or do we wait?
                I mean don't wait for me to get the ball rolling before yall post at will: wanna see what you guys come up with

                Comment


                  1. Primary should be mostly funded publicly, with private schools existing as an option. There needs to be a lot of standards met by schools (regardless of specific stuff in the curriculum), like conditions and dietary needs in the school, and that can be most assured with a public system. Supplies and similar areas would also probably be handled better with a standard system. Private can be there for those that have the option, if they decide their kid needs something different for their kid to succeed.

                  This is mostly due to the fact that privatization, while awesome, isn’t really suited for making sure every generation is suited for the work force, not without getting benefits with massive costs (too many people that will wind up in worse circumstances than others even with substantial hard work put in).

                  College is a little different. Depending on how primary is done, this could be made partially private if it’s just trying to perhaps supplement a primary education for an extra, but if the college level is universally needed, even with dense material in primary to prepare for the real world, public funding would do much better here (same reason as primary).

                  2. (The following is pretty much all for primary school).

                  At the local level, stuff like specific curriculum criteria can be flexible in that it should adjust to the specific needs of the area while at the federal level, general outcomes will be considered desirable, based on the circumstances of the time by which it’s measured through sufficient data collection and analysis, by which the schools should strive to meet. This means standard stuff like being prepared for a job can be more universal, but more specific skills can be flexibly attuned for, and teaching methods can be adjusted if needed by individual schools.

                  Certain levels of standard testing should probably be required, but these will try and be more than just “Do the math problem, select the right choice” kind of stuff. Job skills, like communication or leadership, can be tested in perhaps certain simulations. Depending on the career path one has already planned out, a custom test can be prepared for the student, especially if their method of learning might be different from someone else’s.

                  This can perhaps be done by progressive analysis of the student’s specific attributes, and a “modular” system can be devised, with each little piece coming together at the end, to make it a bit easier to achieve this.

                  More knowledge based activities, like reading and writing, can probably be more standardized.

                  Special education programs (you know, “special” kids), can be prepared. Analyses of the situation nationally in conjunction with local analysis will provide information to the schools, with certain standards having to be met, environmentally, primarily (making sure the kids don’t become depressed is pretty important, after all). The teachers will have a broad idea of what kind of conditions they’re dealing with, and a certain level of how much they have to deal with. This can be handled by a combination of admistrative work by the school and individual teacher preparations.

                  Cooperation between the two to insure that everything goes smoothly will probably be necessary (for everything, I suppose, not just special ed).

                  Teachers will have certain conduct to adhere to, generally. They can’t try and indoctrinate their kids with their ideology; no matter what it is (so no telling the kids that a god exists or that there are 20 billion genders, lol). Analyses of political ideologies can perhaps be done in an elective course, but nowhere else, and with tight requirements and regulation.

                  They also...basically can’t be dicks unnecessarily. Like, not a lot to that bit.

                  The system should also probably not be a fully standard grading system that relies almost solely on test scores to ensuring that students learn what they need to. This could be done with smaller class sizes or other options tailored to their needs, and testing intervals or at least up-close analysis of a student’s learning can be done until, for sure, whatever standards required has been met. This should also be very flexible testing, standard testing typically does not work very well for getting a full idea of what one can do, honestly, and you could lose a perfectly viable working citizen to this because of some odd quirk, potentially.

                  Not much else coming to mind.

                  3. Job skills and job preparedness. A lot of this will start in middle or high school, with the previous years dedicated to cultivating basic skills to function anywhere at all. Making kids aware of their options, and as many of the issues they need to overcome, as reasonably possible. My school had a class on this, but it was just an elective.

                  Shameful.

                  This should be adjusted as circumstances change to ensure that 20 years down the line, that the job prep is not accounting for a completely different society.

                  Standard subjects like Math, History, English, etc, will all be there. But there will be much more emphasis on real life applications where possible.

                  My idea of curriculum is that you have a career path you’re interested in, and your requirements are made according to that (this also goes hand in hand with flexible teaching options in regards to the circumstances of the time). You will have other subjects you can study, and stuff like libraries can also be there and made aware of to the students if they have other subjects they are interested in (don’t close them in a box anymore than need be, I say).

                  How classes are structured could be made fairly flexible. Perhaps not a dead set time limit, or extra time can be allotted to students outside the standard where need be if there is. This can perhaps be determined by the individual schools.

                  A civics class will be required. People should know how their government works and how their country generally operations.

                  A class on the legal system could also possibly be added to have a general idea of how it works and, you know, what not to do.

                  Not sure about foreign language and if we should require it.

                  Optiomal, sure, but not sure on it as a requirement.

                  But what about secondary?

                  Honestly, treating it as an optional extension of primary to try and maybe specialize more with more flexibility in curriculum maybe is basically all I can think up right now...

                  Really don’t know what to do here, honestly.

                  4. Sort of already covered this.

                  Ideology and religion is a no-no, unless we’re talking about a potential elective that will objectively analyze them and is not required (“Study of ideology, religion, and philosophy” could perhaps work). This will thereby deal with any potential radicals trying to get to the kids. Also shouldn’t teach kids any bad manners, and the like.

                  Not much else coming to mind here, so someone else can add here.

                  5. High School’s the best option for where this should be done.

                  I don’t think parents are gonna be squealing to teach their kids about sex (without making it cringe and awkward and missing things, lol), so a lot of the dangers and need-to-know bits about it should be covered in a high school class as required.

                  And that’s all I can think up right now. Feel free to maybe compartmentalize some of this, it’s kind of jumbled (I’m on my phone, lol).

                  My primary goal is to make schools flexible so that it’s not hazardously rigid, but with enough standardization to get the job done.

                  Thoughts?
                  Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; February 4th, 2019, 04:30 PM.

                  Comment


                    Let me get the ball rolling some by starting off in grade school.

                    Fuggin RCA beat me to first reply.

                    I've mentioned this before in the Trump thread, but I feel like grade school should be entirely about preparing a child for life after school.

                    In the early grades, we drill the basics. Get their grammar up to snuff, teach them the basic mathematics (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, decimals, percentages, etc), the basics for sciences, and history, and so forth. But when we get into the later grades (say starting in 9th) we start leaning more into technical skills that will benefit them after graduation.

                    Right now, there are programs that allow high school kids to take a few college level courses. We should take that to the next level. We'll replace the high school diploma entirely... By the time our kids graduate primary school, they'll actually have the education and skillset comparable to a two-year degree in their preferred field and can transfer relevant courses into four year degrees as to cut down the time it takes to get that BA. That does skew the age of young professionals even lower, but the idea is that they would be significantly more prepared to join the workforce upon graduation of primary school than your average children in the US.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Cid View Post
                      Let me get the ball rolling some by starting off in grade school.

                      Fuggin RCA beat me to first reply.
                      I’m as surprised as you are, I know how passionate you are about this.

                      Expected a wall of text twice as long as mine when I posted my thoughts.

                      I've mentioned this before in the Trump thread, but I feel like grade school should be entirely about preparing a child for life after school.

                      In the early grades, we drill the basics. Get their grammar up to snuff, teach them the basic mathematics (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, decimals, percentages, etc), the basics for sciences, and history, and so forth. But when we get into the later grades (say starting in 9th) we start leaning more into technical skills that will benefit them after graduation.

                      Right now, there are programs that allow high school kids to take a few college level courses. We should take that to the next level. We'll replace the high school diploma entirely... By the time our kids graduate primary school, they'll actually have the education and skillset comparable to a two-year degree in their preferred field and can transfer relevant courses into four year degrees as to cut down the time it takes to get that BA. That does skew the age of young professionals even lower, but the idea is that they would be significantly more prepared to join the workforce upon graduation of primary school than your average children in the US.
                      I actually agree with this.

                      Integrating a high school program that’s basically college level, at least in the latter half, is something I support.

                      There’s so much time in High School where you’re just doing...nothing, lol. I remember constantly blitzing through my homework because there was so little of it across six hours of classes a day.

                      All that on top of my plans for a flexible program would probably be good. That, or a certain degree of compromise between the two
                      Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; February 4th, 2019, 02:23 PM.

                      Comment


                        Sorry Shob, the moment we allow for banning people on ideological lines is the moment we allow someone in the future to expand that list of banned peoples to include "undesirables". I have faith in our system that it would root out any that would be bad actors regardless of their ideology. It's why I didn't want to ban marxists and what have you.

                        Now on the next set of policies....

                        1) If we don't do full college education funding I'd say we should at least cover highschool and trade schools.

                        2) I feel regulation should only be put in place to remedy a problem rather than preemptive in this area.

                        3) Math, Science, History, English.... outside of those four the rest should be elective to some degree.

                        4) Religion from a perspective of being the truth rather than what a religion believes to be true. This isn't to denounce religion but we shouldn't be saying "god created the earth" but instead say "The christian faith teaches that god created the earth"

                        5)Yes, there shouldn't really be any problems with educating children on something their bodies will push them to do anyways. All we're doing is making them learn about it on our terms rather than nature's... especially since nature wants them to start up by 15.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by J peth View Post
                          Sorry Shob, the moment we allow for banning people on ideological lines is the moment we allow someone in the future to expand that list of banned peoples to include "undesirables". I have faith in our system that it would root out any that would be bad actors regardless of their ideology. It's why I didn't want to ban marxists and what have you.

                          Now on the next set of policies....

                          1) If we don't do full college education funding I'd say we should at least cover highschool and trade schools.

                          2) I feel regulation should only be put in place to remedy a problem rather than preemptive in this area.

                          3) Math, Science, History, English.... outside of those four the rest should be elective to some degree.

                          4) Religion from a perspective of being the truth rather than what a religion believes to be true. This isn't to denounce religion but we shouldn't be saying "god created the earth" but instead say "The christian faith teaches that god created the earth"

                          5)Yes, there shouldn't really be any problems with educating children on something their bodies will push them to do anyways. All we're doing is making them learn about it on our terms rather than nature's... especially since nature wants them to start up by 15.
                          Just curious, Peth, you wouldn't happen to have any thoughts on my proposals...?

                          I'd like to see yours and Cid's cross-examination of it, so to say, to catch anything I missed (or offer counter-views to the existing stuff).

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                            Just curious, Peth, you wouldn't happen to have any thoughts on my proposals...?

                            I'd like to see yours and Cid's cross-examination of it, so to say, to catch anything I missed (or offer counter-views to the existing stuff).
                            I'm not going to lie, education is probably one of my worst topics when it comes to politics.

                            Ironic considering my desire to be a history teacher I know, but it's the truth.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by J peth View Post

                              I'm not going to lie, education is probably one of my worst topics when it comes to politics.

                              Ironic considering my desire to be a history teacher I know, but it's the truth.
                              To be fair, I bet you'd be good at it. You seem incredibly knowledgeable on the subject. More than me, I'd bet (I have an interest in history, but it's fairly limited, both in current knowledge and the parts of it that I check out).

                              The only reason I had a wall of text, is because of my accumulation of "Man, [x] really blows, it should be better" type complaints that I have heard from so many people in addition to my experiences with things and also just anything I hear about the job market, honestly, lol. So in a way, the career-centric aspect is kind of pulled from the education system I'd make up for the US...so, not entirely in the spirit of this thread? Lol.

                              Maybe can give me an idea of any of the circumstances surrounding the country as founded if it influences how the education system should be worked out, and also if he feels that it's relevant, such as with addressing the circumstances around the borders in the last session.

                              And if my system makes sense within the context of those circumstances he describes, I'll keep my general outline and maybe come up with some more stuff in the same spirit, and if not, I guess I'll change it.

                              But that can probably be worked out in the further discussions, I doubt I'll need to directly fatten up that wall any further, lol.
                              Last edited by RussianCoffeeAddict; February 4th, 2019, 10:12 PM.

                              Comment


                                I'll check out your stuff out and add my own thoughts tomorrow. But I think we can do some real good stuff with education.

                                Comment


                                  Honestly the only thing I know that should be standard is block scheduling (four longer classes a day rather than 7+ shorter classes a day). As it allows for more thorough learning on each subject as well as at the end of the year you'll end up having had more classes than any other system I've seen as some classes only take 9 weeks rather than a semester, and most classes that took all year instead took one semester.

                                  Perhaps some form of incentive for teachers to better their performance that doesn't also lead to a lack of appeal to become a teacher such as we have now would help.... but that's where I know next to nothing about the topic.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Cid View Post
                                    I'll check out your stuff out and add my own thoughts tomorrow. But I think we can do some real good stuff with education.
                                    Where’s your wall of text, man?

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by RussianCoffeeAddict View Post

                                      Where’s your wall of text, man?
                                      Not being written. Been sick today and didn't feel like doing any of the research I needed to do, I'll see about it tomorrow.

                                      Comment


                                        OP Updated with following proposals:

                                        1. Primary education shall be funded publicly, with private schools existing as an option.

                                        2. Public schools shall be funded to provide for the "dietary needs" of students.

                                        3. National regulations shall set general "outcome standards" for what students are supposed to learn and the levels at which they are expected to perform, but it shall be up to local school administrators to come up with specific curriculum that meets those standards.

                                        4. Public schools shall be tasked with teaching adolescents job skills and leadership; not merely academics.

                                        5. Academic subjects such as reading, writing, and math shall be subject to standardized testing.

                                        6. Public schools must provide "special education" programs for children with disabilities.

                                        7. Public school teachers may teach definitions and histories and characteristics of political ideologies in their classrooms, but shall not be allowed to advocate for one specific politically ideology over another in their classes.

                                        8. Public school teachers may teach definitions and histories and characteristics of religious doctrines in their classrooms, but shall not be allowed to advocate for one specific doctrine over another in their classes.

                                        9. Standardized testing shall not be used as the sole measure by which students are graded.

                                        10. Civics shall be required subject in all schools; students must be instructed on how their country operates.

                                        11. Students shall be required to study a foreign language as a core subject.

                                        12. Comprehensive sex education shall be taught at the high school level.

                                        13. Early childhood education shall focus solely on academic subjects of math, science, history, and language proficiency, before more real-world-practical subjects are introduced in higher grades.

                                        14. High school level curriculum should differ from student-to-student depending on their choice of career path. Students entering high school, if they at that point wish to commit to a specific career path, shall be placed in a curriculum specifically tailored to that path rather than placed in general education.

                                        15. ONLY math, science, history, and native language proficiency shall be required subjects. Everything else should be elective to some degree.

                                        If voting [YES] on 15, must vote [NO] on 10 and 11.

                                        Comment


                                          Love the stuff about branching path curriculum in high school and students being placed in curriculum tailored to a specific career path of their choosing rather than in general education once they get to that level.

                                          I can tell you from talking to my wife: that's how they do it in Taiwan.

                                          That's probably how they do it in lots of education systems that get better results than the USA.
                                          _________________________

                                          Still largely unaddressed: the big, controversial topic

                                          What do we do about public access to college education (or lack thereof)?

                                          I'll make the first hard proposal there if no one else wants to--I have ideas--but I still wanna give someone else first crack at it.

                                          ________


                                          Also: how do you guys feel about starting age-appropriate sex education in lower grades, instead of waiting until high school?

                                          ...I also have some thoughts there...

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