Doc

[#83.6666666667]

DokTOR.
>"One of the greatest writers of all time is Portuguese and he died just a century ago. "

>Pessoa

Pick one.

[DokTOR.]

What did he mean by this?

[#83.6666666667]

Lol

[DokTOR.]

Pessoa, como é óbvio.

[#83.6666666667]

The ethic part makes me think he's not really Portuguese.

[Starlight Extinction]

Qual é que é o escritor português que é dos melhores de sempre ? Pura curiosidade

[DokTOR.]

And the USA has a similar beginning story.

It doesn't. It's similar in that it wrestled its independence from a superior power and expanded its territory by portraying the browns as its enemy but that's about where the similarities lie. The US was born as a place of inclusion for all kinds of Europeans; our country was born 900 years ago as a place of exclusion, of hatred against Moors and Spaniards. The US conquered territory that was, by all accounts, Indian; we (re)conquered territory that had been invaded centuries prior and had been subjected to tyranny. The US expansion was mostly land-based, ours was maritime.

And perhaps most importantly, the US has embraced a feeling of guilt and shame for what it has done in the past in an effort to include Indians, and non whites in general, into its culture and society; we have nothing to feel ashamed for, in the eyes of the regular Portuguese citizen, the Reconquista was justified and there is nothing to atone for (at least against Moors specifically).

[#83.6666666667]

What a weird conversation path this thread has. Why start a thread so politely and then lead it into insulting someone's nation and concept of culture?

I never did that. You see what you want to see. This is something you guys do often here, I've noticed.

[#83.6666666667]

I have already identified it. Portugal was built on fending off the Moors and maritime exploration. Our entire culture, literature, mythos and whatever is built around essentially those two things. Also what do you mean by diversity? Our hey-days were in a period where diversity was at its lowest. Now the country has gone to shit ever since the dictatorship ended and we gave free citizenship to Africans and Brazilians. Diversity has visibly hurt the country in every way.

And we may be doing financially terrible, but we are not doing culturally terrible, I don't know where you got that idea. One of the greatest writers of all time is Portuguese and he died just a century ago. Another ethnically Portuguese writer won a nobel barely 20 years ago.

What exactly are you trying to achieve here? My country isn't the United States. It was built on literal xenophobia and racism against a specific group and that is still ingrained into our culture to this very day. Suggesting we should incorporate middle eastern culture into our own is beyond nonsensical.

"Our entire culture, literature, mythos and whatever is built around essentially those two things."
That's very interesting information.

My goal was to learn from your perspective what Portugal is. I also wanted to see what nationalism meant to you and see if it was on an extreme or moderate stage. Thanks for your input, I really don't have more questions for you now.

And the USA has a similar beginning story.

[Thar]

What a weird conversation path this thread has. Why start a thread so politely and then lead it into insulting someone's nation and concept of culture?

Because it's T5.

[OrganizationXV]

What a weird conversation path this thread has. Why start a thread so politely and then lead it into insulting someone's nation and concept of culture?

[OsamaBinBallin]

Is Doc really a Doc?

[DokTOR.]

Yet you really can't identify what Portugal is and what cultural value it has to lose. Seems like Portugal needs diversity to actually flourish. Much like Spain both countries were very, very, well benefited from the resources taken from America. But now you are both doing financially terrible, as well as culturally. What hope do you have with your current state? Do you really think Portugal has an opportunity to become something again? After all, that's what a nationalist wishes, no? To return or make their country great.


Kinda of a short list.

I have already identified it. Portugal was built on fending off the Moors and maritime exploration. Our entire culture, literature, mythos and whatever is built around essentially those two things. Also what do you mean by diversity? Our hey-days were in a period where diversity was at its lowest. Now the country has gone to shit ever since the dictatorship ended and we gave free citizenship to Africans and Brazilians. Diversity has visibly hurt the country in every way.

And we may be doing financially terrible, but we are not doing culturally terrible, I don't know where you got that idea. One of the greatest writers of all time is Portuguese and he died just a century ago. Another ethnically Portuguese writer won a nobel barely 20 years ago.

What exactly are you trying to achieve here? My country isn't the United States. It was built on literal xenophobia and racism against a specific group and that is still ingrained into our culture to this very day. Suggesting we should incorporate middle eastern culture into our own is beyond nonsensical.

[#83.6666666667]

No, that sounds like a very American idea. The best my country can be isn't by forsaking everything that makes its identity for the sake of economic growth and cultural diversity. Then it ceases to be itself, and if it ceases to be itself then the people, too, become lost. The best it can be is by recovering what it has lost and improving on what it has. Not to mention Portuguese nationalism since Salazar prides itself on isolation.

The Reconquista and this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_discoveries

Yet you really can't identify what Portugal is and what cultural value it has to lose. Seems like Portugal needs diversity to actually flourish. Much like Spain both countries were very, very, well benefited from the resources taken from America. But now you are both doing financially terrible, as well as culturally. What hope do you have with your current state? Do you really think Portugal has an opportunity to become something again? After all, that's what a nationalist wishes, no? To return or make their country great.


Kinda of a short list.

[DokTOR.]

Then you're not a true nationalist are you? Isn't the point of being a nationalist for your country to be the best it could be?

What I'm asking is what do you then base your culture in. The Italians have Rome, the Greeks their ancient Greece, and even the Iranians have Persia and all the other great civilizations that came before; heck even Australia have Kangaroos and New Zealand Kiwi's. You're telling me that Portugal built their identity from fending off Moors some 600 years ago? Or is there something else you deeply identify with that gives you a motive to be a nationalist?

No, that sounds like a very American idea. The best my country can be isn't by forsaking everything that makes its identity for the sake of economic growth and cultural diversity. Then it ceases to be itself, and if it ceases to be itself then the people, too, become lost. The best it can be is by recovering what it has lost and improving on what it has. Not to mention Portuguese nationalism since Salazar prides itself on isolation.

The Reconquista and this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_discoveries

[#83.6666666667]

No. Changing our culture would directly impact our identity, which means the country is no longer the same. There's no need to change it. Middle Eastern influence is seen as antithetical to Portuguese culture; the entire country was literally built on removing moors from the territory. There are more valuable things than a vague and meaningless sense of progress or benefit.


I don't understand this question. Moor is used as a pejorative and an insult for those in the south who had been under moorish rule for longer, anyway.

Then you're not a true nationalist are you? Isn't the point of being a nationalist for your country to be the best it could be?

What I'm asking is what do you then base your culture in. The Italians have Rome, the Greeks their ancient Greece, and even the Iranians have Persia and all the other great civilizations that came before; heck even Australia have Kangaroos and New Zealand Kiwi's. You're telling me that Portugal built their identity from fending off Moors some 600 years ago? Or is there something else you deeply identify with that gives you a motive to be a nationalist?

[DokTOR.]

So you are okay with changing your culture or at least modifying it to a more middle eastern one if it means that Portugal is benefited?

No. Changing our culture would directly impact our identity, which means the country is no longer the same. There's no need to change it. Middle Eastern influence is seen as antithetical to Portuguese culture; the entire country was literally built on removing moors from the territory. There are more valuable things than a vague and meaningless sense of progress or benefit.

And what do you guys identify with of not with the Moors?

I don't understand this question. Moor is used as a pejorative and an insult for those in the south who had been under moorish rule for longer, anyway.

[#83.6666666667]

So you are okay with changing your culture or at least modifying it to a more middle eastern one if it means that Portugal is benefited?

And what do you guys identify with of not with the Moors?

[DokTOR.]

Umayyad = good, cultural and artistic boom, relatively lenient on other faiths and peoples, good example of a melting pot
Almoravids and Almohads = bad, tyrannical, major loss of the arts and culture
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soci...

Portuguese (and Spanish) has a lot of words of Arabic origin, and Moorish architecture has been preserved in the center and south of the country. General population perception of the Moors is negative and they don't consider them a part of our national identity, as the Reconquista was a fundamental part in the founding of the country and the Moors were always seen as the enemy since the County of Portugal was founded by the kingdom of Asturias

[#83.6666666667]

What influence do you see the Moors had in Portugal? Was it good or bad? DokTOR.
Eh, don't know if this topic interests you but it does me.