The myth of "humane" slaughter

[Helly]

I do agree that the meat industry is kind of a blight. (I like my burgers though, so yea I am a hypocrite). At the same time I don't really ( and can't really) see how eating animals is immoral (Animals that were personally caught and hunted by yourself. Like someone living in th Congo ambushing some antelopes to feed their family. Not a production line of machines gutting a hundred cows by the hour.)

You can't really have life without putting something at expense. Even many plants have a variety of defenses in order to deter and even mitigate being consumed, which heavily provides credence that plants don't fancy getting munched on like many other organisms.

Plants don't have a subjective experience and are not sentient, though. My whole point with veganism has always been from the perspective of empathy, which is how we get alot of our morals in the first place - including the tenet of "thou shalt not kill'.

Now, if you're in the congo and you literally have to kill animals to survive, that's another question entirely. Most people living in the first world aren't in that type of situation, though.

Even wheat doesn't want to be eaten. You get less nutrient eating it raw versus processing it and cooking it.

Our veggies and fruits are selectively breed food for taste and appearance. The fact it has nutrients is just a side benefit really.

You get less from raw meat, too, plus it kills you so I dont see the point of bringing that up.

Kajin, where do you think the animals get their nutrients from? You know, the nutrients you ingest from them? Do you have any idea how many pounds of plant protein are used to create just one pound of meat protein? 'Side benefit'....There is a person in this world who actually typed that out, lol, good lord.....

omg... I can't believe I'm defending, Doc...


But IT IS a counter argument! He just gave you a personal experience as an example of how much people care about other creatures.

Except it's not. I've always stated that people shouldn't starve or kill themselves in the name of animal lives. It's completely irrelevant.

[Helly]

Need sources. Couldn't find anything on "animal sugar"

Kajin go back to page 13-14 and read my discussion about red meats with Cid you absolute dumbass

Never linked alternative medicine nor pushed for it. I don't argue science lies neither, bro. Get your facts straight.

You did link to that crap. Cid even got on your case over it, Jesus Christ I can't believe how slimy you are.

You mean these people? https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-liv...althy-proteins

They seem pretty fine with meat to me. They just say to limit the amount. They suggest alternatives but don't tell you eating meat makes you a monster and will shorten your life as you seem to imply.

Why are they telling you to limit the amount, then, if it's not going to be detrimental to your health? ARE YOU GOING TO PRETEND IT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT TRANS FATS AND HEART DISEASE NOW????

I actuallg hate you. Lol. Kajin, you are a legitimately terrible person. No, it's not because you eat meat, it's because you're a dishonest fuck too delusional and egomaniacal to acknowledge reality except for when it fits in with your preconceived notions. You are just incapable of processing new information that contradicts your beliefs.

[Kajin_Style]

Kajin go back one page and read my discussion about red meats with Cid you absolute dumbass

Too lazy.

You did link to that crap. Cid even got on your case over it, Jesus Christ I can't believe how slimy you are.

No he didn't.

Why are they telling you to limit the amount, then, if it's not going to be detrimental to your health? ARE YOU GOING TO PRETEND IT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT TRANS FATS AND HEART DISEASE NOW????

Silly Helly, meat doesn't have trans fats. It is the oils you cook it in that have trans fat. Silly Helly.

I actuallg hate you. Lol. Kajin, you are a legitimately terrible person. No, it's not because you eat meat, it's because you're a dishonest fuck too delusional and egomaniacal to acknowledge reality except for when it suits you.

Hate me so much that you miss spelled a word, nice.

Kajin, where do you think the animals get their nutrients from? You knowm the nutrients you ingest from them? Do you have any idea how many pounds of plant protein are used to create just one pound of meat protein?

Do you know how hard it is for plant eating animals to digest cellulose and other plant matter? So hard in fact that they need either multiple stomachs like cows or have to eat their own poop like bunnies!

Also deer eat baby birds for calcium.

[Helly]

Too lazy.

Concession accepted. Moving on,

No he didn't.

Yea, we all know your memory is extremely selective, so that's why I'm asking Cid to confirm or deny.

Silly Helly, meat doesn't have trans fats. It is the oils you cook it in that have trans fat. Silly Helly.

It does, actually, but it's no surprise you don't know that. Trans aside, it has saturated fats as well which is why the organization tells you to eat less.....BECAUSE IT'S BAD FOR YOUR HEART AND HEALTH

[Kajin_Style]

It does, actually, but it's no surprise you don't know that. Trans aside, it has saturated fats as well which is why the organization tells you to eat less.....BECAUSE IT'S BAD FOR YOUR HEART AND HEALTH

I just googled that before posting. It is only in the oils use to cook (which have all been banned) and how we process certain meats like sausage. So no trans fat in my steak.

[Helly]

I just googled that before posting. It is only in the oils use to cook (which have all been banned) and how we process certain meats like sausage. So no trans fat in my steak.

Apparently you didn't read past the first result that confirmed your bias, how shocking

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-liv...fats/trans-fat


By the way, I like how you're hyper-focused on trans fats and not on saturated fats and heart health, which the AHA also mentioned and I highlighted. So, you really are trying to pretend that red meats have no adverse effects on your heart health, wow who saw that one coming.

[Zemoco]

Plants don't have a subjective experience and are not sentient, though. My whole point with veganism has always been from the perspective of empathy, which is how we get alot of our morals in the first place - including the tenet of "thou shalt not kill'.

The fact that plants have defense mechanisms to deter being consumed does put a hole in that though (though that's probably more of a case of natural selection). Still, there's nothing that debunks that plants don't have sentience, just not in a way most organisms do. In fact, most of our moods are controlled by neurotransmitters like Dopamine. The entire reason why drugs have such a warping effects on our mental states is that all they really do is stimulate or inhibit various neurotransmitters, like with serotonin and depression.

If all of our feelings are just secretion of chemicals, how can we really say that plants don't have these when many of their processes include the secretion of chemicals. In the end, things must die for life to thrive.

Now, if you're in the congo and you literally have to kill animals to survive, that's another question entirely. Most people living in the first world aren't in that type of situation, though.

Which I do agree with. I don't agree that the act of consuming animals is immoral, but I do agree that the commercialization of the wholesale slaughter of animals isn't really that.

The meat industry (though I do partake in it...guilty)is highly immoral, and I feel that when synthetic meat is more developed and widespread meat consumption should be heavily discouraged.

[DokTOR.]

So, this is another example of people being weird whenever they talk about veganism. Lol

Doc, no one is asking you to literally kill yourself to save an animal. For God's sake, you're a philosophy student, why the heck are you making this ridiculous comment that doesn't even deserve to be labeled a counter-point. I would expect something like this to come from Kajin, what are you doing dude, lol.

Human beings are typically pretty hypocritical, but they will still forego a soda or a bag of chips to buy their pet the food it needs. So, you're wrong on that part. The answers to the question only become more varied when it's about animals they have no personal connection to, which is where the double-standards start to show themselves.

The point is that the hypocrisy extends to vegans as well. You don't treat an animal the same way you treat a human and you recognize this as a fact. Animal rights, thus, becomes an arbitrary meme.

[Lord L'Zoril]

The point is that the hypocrisy extends to vegans as well. You don't treat an animal the same way you treat a human and you recognize this as a fact. Animal rights, thus, becomes an arbitrary meme.

Except PETA is literally a thing.

Also, just because most people "value" humans more than animals doesn't mean people go around kicking puppies for fun. Only autists and pre-serials do that.

That being said, I personally don't have anything against killing an animal that you caught yourself for sustenance. However, that doesn't mean that I'm just going to turn a blind eye to the industrialization of the wholesale slaughter of livestock either. The latter is inhumane and it not being directed at humans doesn't invalidate that.

[RussianCoffeeAddict]

Except PETA is literally a thing.

...Isn’t PETA a total meme, tho...? Lol.

[DokTOR.]

Except PETA is literally a thing.

Also, just because most people "value" humans more than animals doesn't mean people go around kicking puppies for fun. Only autists and pre-serials do that.

That being said, I personally don't have anything against killing an animal that you caught yourself for sustenance. However, that doesn't mean that I'm just going to turn a blind eye to the industrialization of the wholesale slaughter of livestock either. The latter is inhumane and it not being directed at humans doesn't invalidate that.

If dogs weren't pets, then people would be out there kicking puppies if they get in their way, the same way you would smash a cockroach or a rat if it was in front of you on the sidewalk and it refused to move

[Lord L'Zoril]

If dogs weren't pets, then people would be out there kicking puppies if they get in their way, the same way you would smash a cockroach or a rat if it was in front of you on the sidewalk and it refused to move

Doubtful. People don't keep deer (also somewhat of an annoyance in certain regions, like vermin) as pets, but most non-hunters wouldn't kill them unnecessarily all the same. How "cute" an animal is lends it value, and most mammals (specifically, dogs) are considered cute.

...Isn’t PETA a total meme, tho...? Lol.

Some of the memebers are, sure, but not the organization itself. They've actually made some strides.

[DokTOR.]

Just proving the point about arbitrary treatment of animals

[Pocket Rocket]

Hate me so much that you miss spelled a word, nice.

you "miss spelled" misspelled

[dan]

...Isn’t PETA a total meme, tho...? Lol.

...You really just don't understand anything past what the internet tells you...?Lol.

Of course they do good in some cases you living cartoon character

[RussianCoffeeAddict]

...You really just don't understand anything past what the internet tells you...?Lol.

Of course they do good in some cases you living cartoon character

You wouldn’t happen to be a vegan, would you?

[OrganizationXV]

Arguments aside, what good things does PETA do? Genuine question, I've only heard bad things.

[Cid]

Yea, we all know your memory is extremely selective, so that's why I'm asking Cid to confirm or deny.

I don't remember and I'm not going to hunt through the topic to find out if I did. lol

[Helly]

The fact that plants have defense mechanisms to deter being consumed does put a hole in that though (though that's probably more of a case of natural selection). Still, there's nothing that debunks that plants don't have sentience, just not in a way most organisms do. In fact, most of our moods are controlled by neurotransmitters like Dopamine. The entire reason why drugs have such a warping effects on our mental states is that all they really do is stimulate or inhibit various neurotransmitters, like with serotonin and depression.

If all of our feelings are just secretion of chemicals, how can we really say that plants don't have these when many of their processes include the secretion of chemicals. In the end, things must die for life to thrive.



Which I do agree with. I don't agree that the act of consuming animals is immoral, but I do agree that the commercialization of the wholesale slaughter of animals isn't really that.

The meat industry (though I do partake in it...guilty)is highly immoral, and I feel that when synthetic meat is more developed and widespread meat consumption should be heavily discouraged.

Because plants don't have a central nervous system. They don't have brains, they have no subjective experience of reality, there is no entity at the center of it all. The onus isn't on me to disprove they have sentience, it's a commonly accepted belief that they don't because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.


Why do you think animal agriculture as it exists today is immoral?

The point is that the hypocrisy extends to vegans as well. You don't treat an animal the same way you treat a human and you recognize this as a fact. Animal rights, thus, becomes an arbitrary meme.

What exactly do you mean by "the same way you treat humans"? I wouldn't sacrifice my life for the sake of a human stranger, either, and I wouldn't expect anyone to throw themselves into harm's way for the sake of a random human life.

..........are you invoking the "why don't we give animals the right to vote" meme? Because we deny that right for the mentally handicapped all the time.

I don't remember and I'm not going to hunt through the topic to find out if I did. lol

It was actually in Orgy's "Whats on your mind" thread, but yea Kajin was being asspained because he thought I wasn't being fair because I didn't give his youtube videos and random blog posts the same amount of consideration as I did the American Dietetics Association. At one point I said to you "I can't just ignore that this guy is linking to alternative medicine websites, you already know why Cid", and you told him not to do that shit.

[Kajin_Style]

Apparently you didn't read past the first result that confirmed your bias, how shocking

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-liv...fats/trans-fat


By the way, I like how you're hyper-focused on trans fats and not on saturated fats and heart health, which the AHA also mentioned and I highlighted. So, you really are trying to pretend that red meats have no adverse effects on your heart health, wow who saw that one coming.

Did you not read past your own bias and see:

Small amounts of trans fats occur naturally in some meat and dairy products, including beef, lamb and butterfat. There have not been sufficient studies to determine whether these naturally occurring trans fats have the same bad effects on cholesterol levels as trans fats that have been industrially manufactured.

Also YOU were the one talking about transfats! You brought it up in post #302! I was just countering your point. That's all. So take your assumptions and shove'em up your ass.


Next topic!

[Helly]

Did you not read past your own bias and see:



Also YOU were the one talking about transfats! You brought it up in post #302! I was just countering your point. That's all. So take your assumptions and shove'em up your ass.


Next topic!

I saw it, but that's not what the discussion is about right now. It's about heart health and what the AHA recommends, and you're just completely trying to ignore that in favor of something really small and ultimately insignificant seeing as how the saturated fats are still going to kill you anyway even if it comes out that naturally occuring trans fats are good for you somehow.

You like AOC, right? Despite her inspiring terrorism, you think she's just the sweetest little angel? Well, right now, you're acting like the guys who were getting on AOC over her "I'm morally correct" comment, and hyperfocusing on one minute detail to avoid addressing the bulk of my post. Do you not see how you're being a complete Republican right now? Did you forget that this conversation was about how red meats affect you? What does the AHA say about red meat, Kajin?